Can not do design without a Customer?

In terms of ISO 9001 7.2.1.

  • It can go either way

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    11
  • Poll closed .

BradM

Staff member
Admin
#41
:modcop:Also, I tried to move all the other posts over from the other thread. If I missed anything or did something wrong, let me (or someone else) know so we can fix it.
 
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Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Staff member
Admin
#42
Many market needs are obvious based on documented needs and/or common sense. This is the "if we build it, they will come" marketing philosophy.

Other market needs are met in backdoor fashion when an inventor creates something that he or she uniquely realizes how to do, often purely because they enjoy creating things and overcoming technical challenges, and it turns out that he or she isn't the only person that wants the invention. This is the intuitive path.

Some examples:

1. A pharma company, as part of its broad mega$$$ search for biomedical action of complex natural organics, discovers a substance that achieves an improved level of effectiveness in treatment of a known disease...so it productizes it. There's no need to consult with potential users and disease sufferers, at the point of the initial productization decision, as to whether they're interested in a more effective treatment option than they currently have.

2. A teenager codes up a functionality that he would like to have exist, because it doesn't and he can. It turns out that a bunch of his buddies like it too. Then it turns out that 100 million other people want it as well. That's basically the story of DOS, Windows, Lotus 1-2-3, online "bulletin board" technology, Facebook, Twitter, Napster, etc.

3. The first personal computers were all hobby or hobby-business efforts that turned into businesses, and eventually a rather large industry. Often design was driven, not by what customers would want, but what parts the designers could afford to buy, or existed to be bought, or could finagle someone into co-developing for them.

4. Lockheed is one example of a rather large company that for decades maintained an expensive sub-operation (in their case, the so-called Skunk Works) tasked specifically with building things that they could figure out how to do, and would have neat new capabilities. No customers involved until they had something that flew and was "interesting".

None of these is the norm, of course--the pharma example is less common than it was in the '70s, say, because a lot of the world has been explored and because molecular synthesation has proceeded to the point that design now more frequently is marketing driven, i.e. model and test all the possible molecules that have these characteristics, similarities and interactions, and meet these criteria--but they've all been historically important.
You are confusing Research and tinkering with a New Product Development, structured design process. ISO 9001 does not deal with pure research, unless research is forced into the picture as the service being offered or a registrant wanting to include research in the scope of the QMS and the scope of certification.
 

Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Staff member
Admin
#43
The topic at hand is ISO 9001:2008. Show me the "shall" in that standard.

I don't debate that it may be a bad business practice even though it may not always be. That doesn't create a "shall" in ISO 9001:2008.
You are right. There is no shall in the standard for that. Just like many other absent shalls, as this example I offered a while ago.
 
J

JaneB

#44
Big Jim, now I"m seriously confused. You voted that no customer is required for the clause to apply...? I thought from the discussion you were firmly arguing the opposite??:confused:
 
J

JaneB

#45
There's always a customer...the one that pays cash for the stuff (EXTERNAL) or the one that uses the stuff without compensation (INTERNAL).....

INTERNAL customers and EXTERNAL customers, thay can all have requirements, expectations and needs and design needs can come from either one
Indeed yes. :applause:
 
J

JaneB

#47
Can anyone helo me in understanding which product or service is realised without "customer" involvement ?
Satish, the question isn't about product realisation but about whether service or product design can be done without a 'real' customer. Different question.
 
S

sathishthantri

#48
Sathish,

The computer you used to make this post was designed and made without your involvement.

This applies to most if not all of the consumer products you own.

These are examples of products designed and made without Sathish being involved as the customer.

John
Dear John,
Missed the actions as I was on travel without my laptop.
My computer was designed without my involvement but I am not the only customer for this computer. I bought this computer because it matched my needs and expectations, which was assessed by DELL from other potential / actual customers long before it anticipated my buying.

In my opinon, no company designs without customers' inputs.

There are companies involved in research and the inputs for most of such research is customers' expectations or lack of existing products to cater the customers' delight levels (as the bar always is raised).
There are instances where a product cmes out out of blue without any inpits like market / customers' needs and expectations, but it is generally due to accidental innovation.

Will these definitions from ISO 9000 help :

3.3.5 customer
organization​
(3.3.1) or person that receives a product (3.4.2)

EXAMPLE Consumer, client, end-user, retailer, beneficiary and purchaser.​
NOTE A customer can be internal or external to the organization.

3.4.4 design and development​
set of​
processes (3.4.1) that transforms requirements (3.1.2) into specified characteristics (3.5.1) or into the specification (3.7.3) of a product (3.4.2), process (3.4.1) or system (3.2.1)

NOTE 1 The terms​
designand developmentare sometimes used synonymously and sometimes used to define different
stages of the overall design and development process.
NOTE 2 A qualifier can be applied to indicate the nature of what is being designed and developed (e.g. product design and development or process design and development)


3.1.2 requirement​
need or expectation that is stated, generally implied or obligatory​
NOTE 1​
Generally impliedmeans that it is custom or common practice for the organization (3.3.1), its customers (3.3.5)
and other
interested parties (3.3.7), that the need or expectation under consideration is implied.
NOTE 2 A qualifier can be used to denote a specific type of requirement, e.g. product requirement, quality management
requirement, customer requirement.
NOTE 3 A specified requirement is one that is stated, for example in a
document (3.7.2).

NOTE 4 Requirements can be generated by different
interested parties (3.3.7).


A bit from ISO 9004 :
7.3 Design and development​
7.3.1 General guidance​
Top management should ensure that the organization has defined, implemented and maintained the necessary design and development processes to respond effectively and efficiently to the needs and expectations of its customers and other interested parties.
When designing and developing products or processes, management should ensure that the organization is not only capable of considering their basic performance and function, but all factors that contribute to meeting the product and process performance expected by customers and other interested parties.​

Sathish
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#49
Often products are designed or developed for the anticipated customers, before the product has any actual customers. An example would be the recent launch of the Apple iPad. They designed the features as they thought the intended customer would like, but none were sold till it was fully completed.
 

Big Jim

Super Moderator
#50
Big Jim, now I"m seriously confused. You voted that no customer is required for the clause to apply...? I thought from the discussion you were firmly arguing the opposite??:confused:
Let's chalk that up to misunderstanding the survey. If there is no customer then of course there are no customer requirements to gather. It's only logical.
 
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