Can not do design without a Customer?

In terms of ISO 9001 7.2.1.

  • It can go either way

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Big Jim

Super Moderator
#52
? :confused: What would be stupid business practice?
It would help to look at the context of that entire post.

"And in this country they are free to seek the "darwin award", intentionally or unintentially.

The topic at hand is ISO 9001:2008. Show me the "shall" in that standard.

I don't debate that it may be a bad business practice even though it may not always be. That doesn't create a "shall" in ISO 9001:2008."



It could be a bad business practice to develop a product without any customer input on a routine basis, but there is no limit to stupidity.

So, Jane, would you write a nonconformance if an auditee was developing a product, using element 7.3 for design and development, but not gathering customer input? Like I asked Sydney, "show me the shall". It just isn't there.
 

Big Jim

Super Moderator
#53
Dear John,
Missed the actions as I was on travel without my laptop.
My computer was designed without my involvement but I am not the only customer for this computer. I bought this computer because it matched my needs and expectations, which was assessed by DELL from other potential / actual customers long before it anticipated my buying.

In my opinon, no company designs without customers' inputs.

There are companies involved in research and the inputs for most of such research is customers' expectations or lack of existing products to cater the customers' delight levels (as the bar always is raised).
There are instances where a product cmes out out of blue without any inpits like market / customers' needs and expectations, but it is generally due to accidental innovation.

Will these definitions from ISO 9000 help :

3.3.5 customer
organization​
(3.3.1) or person that receives a product (3.4.2)

EXAMPLE Consumer, client, end-user, retailer, beneficiary and purchaser.​
NOTE A customer can be internal or external to the organization.

3.4.4 design and development​
set of​
processes (3.4.1) that transforms requirements (3.1.2) into specified characteristics (3.5.1) or into the specification (3.7.3) of a product (3.4.2), process (3.4.1) or system (3.2.1)

NOTE 1 The terms​
designand developmentare sometimes used synonymously and sometimes used to define different
stages of the overall design and development process.
NOTE 2 A qualifier can be applied to indicate the nature of what is being designed and developed (e.g. product design and development or process design and development)


3.1.2 requirement​
need or expectation that is stated, generally implied or obligatory​
NOTE 1​
Generally impliedmeans that it is custom or common practice for the organization (3.3.1), its customers (3.3.5)
and other
interested parties (3.3.7), that the need or expectation under consideration is implied.
NOTE 2 A qualifier can be used to denote a specific type of requirement, e.g. product requirement, quality management
requirement, customer requirement.
NOTE 3 A specified requirement is one that is stated, for example in a
document (3.7.2).

NOTE 4 Requirements can be generated by different
interested parties (3.3.7).


A bit from ISO 9004 :
7.3 Design and development​
7.3.1 General guidance​
Top management should ensure that the organization has defined, implemented and maintained the necessary design and development processes to respond effectively and efficiently to the needs and expectations of its customers and other interested parties.
When designing and developing products or processes, management should ensure that the organization is not only capable of considering their basic performance and function, but all factors that contribute to meeting the product and process performance expected by customers and other interested parties.​

Sathish
And we must not forget that element 7.3.2 is where in design and develoopment that requirements are gathered. The source of those requirements certainly can be from customers, but also from anywhere else. Element 7.3.2 is silent on where the requirements may come from.
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#54
If a company develops something, it would be for one of three obvious reasons. There is always a cistomer in the picture somewhere, but it might be in the future.

1. A customer has requested it, and defined requirements -
(i.e.: a customer orders a bracket to fit onto something they make, and they specify the shape and dimiensional requirements. In this case, the customer would be responsible for design.)

2. A company has an idea for a product, and they are confident that the marketplace (customers) will buy it. They have to determine what features the marketplace (customers) would want, and develop a design that can meet those requirements. And sometimes, a bit of compromise is involved between what the market wants and what the designers are able to achieve.
(i.e.: Apple developed their new iPad. In this case, the supplier would be responsible for design, but has true customers in mind, but in the future.)

3. An inventor could have a vision for a product unrelated to anything in the market at this time. But he believes passionately in this invention, and believes the marketplace will receive it favorably. In this case, he might imagine what these potential customers would like to see, but often would design it to his own vision, because he is convinced he is correct. ..."if you build it, they will come." Even in this case, where it is largely the vision of the inventor/designer which drives the design considerations, however, even here customers are in the picture, but the designer's vision serves as a proxy for those future customers. In fact, the success of the invention is often directly linked to how well the inventor can read the marketplace.
(i.e.: the palm island resort built in Dubai, and the ill-fated Edsel car design.)

An inventor/designer could be permitted to design something that there would be no intended customers, (can you say Howard Hughes), but generally those are extreme examples and the marketplace tends to resolve those situations.
 

Big Jim

Super Moderator
#55
If a company develops something, it would be for one of three obvious reasons. There is always a cistomer in the picture somewhere, but it might be in the future.

1. A customer has requested it, and defined requirements -
(i.e.: a customer orders a bracket to fit onto something they make, and they specify the shape and dimiensional requirements. In this case, the customer would be responsible for design.)

2. A company has an idea for a product, and they are confident that the marketplace (customers) will buy it. They have to determine what features the marketplace (customers) would want, and develop a design that can meet those requirements. And sometimes, a bit of compromise is involved between what the market wants and what the designers are able to achieve.
(i.e.: Apple developed their new iPad. In this case, the supplier would be responsible for design, but has true customers in mind, but in the future.)

3. An inventor could have a vision for a product unrelated to anything in the market at this time. But he believes passionately in this invention, and believes the marketplace will receive it favorably. In this case, he might imagine what these potential customers would like to see, but often would design it to his own vision, because he is convinced he is correct. ..."if you build it, they will come." Even in this case, where it is largely the vision of the inventor/designer which drives the design considerations, however, even here customers are in the picture, but the designer's vision serves as a proxy for those future customers. In fact, the success of the invention is often directly linked to how well the inventor can read the marketplace.
(i.e.: the palm island resort built in Dubai, and the ill-fated Edsel car design.)

An inventor/designer could be permitted to design something that there would be no intended customers, (can you say Howard Hughes), but generally those are extreme examples and the marketplace tends to resolve those situations.
But does the ISO 9001:2008 standard REQUIRE inventors to consider customer requirements before undertaking design? Show me the "shall". You can't because it simply isn't there.
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#56
But does the ISO 9001:2008 standard REQUIRE inventors to consider customer requirements before undertaking design? Show me the "shall". You can't because it simply isn't there.
The original question centered around the question of whether you can do design without the customers. That is the aspect I was addressing.

I was not debating whether there is a shall in cl 7.3.x about REQUIRING inventors to consider customers. I think that is a bit off track. However, a fair read of section 7.3.1 thru 7.3.7 does indicate that design inputs shall be clearly defined, and in many cases, customer requirements would be a central part of those inputs. In those cases, it may be considered a shall.

I would think it is inherently obvious in most cases, where applicable. Cl. 7.2 makes customer requirements very clear, which is an input to cl 7.3. Further, the TS standard makes the link more clear, and a good read of ISO 9004 reinfoces the concept.

Frankly, I've never debated with clients whether customer requirements had to be a part of design inputs. I don't generally get into debates with clients, because we have a common goal to their benefit and betterment. As such, we don't generally have to argue.
 

atitheya

Quite Involved in Discussions
#60
Are we missing something???

ISO9001:2008

1. Scope

1.1 General

This International Standard specifies requirement for a quality management system where an organization

a) needs to demonstrate its ability to consistently provide product that meets customer and applicable statutory requirements, and

b) aims to enhance customer satisfaction through the effective......
Having said that, organizations will need to

1. Determine requirements related to the product (7.2.1)

and, if the organization is involved in design too, then,

2. Determine Inputs relating to product reqruirements (7.3.2)

which will include some/all of the customer requirements (7.2.1 a) (maybe less) and more as determined by the organization.

3. Customer requirements (7.2.1 a) may include not only product specifications but also delivery and post delivery requirements and these may not be part of the design requirements. Hence 7.3.2 and 7.2.1 can not be the same.

Why are we mixing the two clauses so clearly defined?

Please correct me if I am wrong.
 
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