Can one Management Representative operate between two sister firms

[ong0708]

Re: Can one Management Representative operate two sister firms

I'm sorry Jane to differ on the issue of an MR being a consultant. Please refer the attached document (approved interpretation) taken from the ISO website public domain. that also prohibits an organization from deputing a consultant as an MR though it says "person independent of organization's management (e.g. a consultant)" cannot be an MR but at the same time it's very difficult to establish that a consultant is a member of the organization's management.

Hi Samsung,

for the clarification.

The interpretation being given is YES for "[FONT=&quot]In our organization we have a management representative appointed by top management, who works for the company in a [/FONT][FONT=&quot]managerial capacity. He is not a permanent member of staff, but works full-time on a contract basis. Is it allowable under the standard, for such a person to act as the organization’s management representative?"

[/FONT]From the sentence, can we define consultant as "not a permanent member of staff but works part-time on a contract basis"?

If the consultant was deployed to the company and work part-time on a contract basis, is he able to be the MR?
[FONT=&quot][/FONT]

 

[samsung]

Re: Can one Management Representative operate two sister firms

Hi Samsung,

for the clarification.

The interpretation being given is YES for "[FONT=&quot]In our organization we have a management representative appointed by top management, who works for the company in a [/FONT][FONT=&quot]managerial capacity. He is not a permanent member of staff, but works full-time on a contract basis. Is it allowable under the standard, for such a person to act as the organization’s management representative?"

[/FONT]From the sentence, can we define consultant as "not a permanent member of staff but works part-time on a contract basis"?

If the consultant was deployed to the company and work part-time on a contract basis, is he able to be the MR?
[FONT=&quot][/FONT]

Based on the Interpretation No. RFI 109 & 101 of the attachment, an MR should atleast meet two of the conditions, i.e.; s/he must be in a managerial capacity (be a member of the management) and shouldn't be "independent of the organization's management" and secondly s/he should be a fulltime associate of the organization either on muster roll or through a contractual agreement. In my opinion, only an employee or a board member can fulfill these two requirements because this person is not only representing management but also directing resources in a way that will enable the company to achieve its objectives.

So, a non-permanent, part time person, as in your case, can not undertake the role of MR.

 

[vanputten]

Re: Can one Management Representative operate two sister firms

Forget the term "outsource since there are so many different understandings of that term. The issue is dependent vs independent. An organization can go outside of their organization (call it "outsource" if you want to muddy the discussion) and hire a person and bring them into the organization as a member of management thus causing them to be dependent. The real intent of this clause is to have a MR that has a vested interest and is effective.

And this discussion on allowable titles is frustrating for me. The person has to be a member of management. They can have any title that ever existed as long as they are a member of management. They can have any title!

In the US, it is very common for board members to be board members of multiple companies. This may or may not be a similar role as a MR to an ISO 9001 quality system, but the concept of lack of conflict of interest is the same. Conflict of interest is generally the rule of thumb as to whether a person can be a board member of multiple companies. An organization would not want a board member that is a board member for a competitor. I would assume this would hold true for an MR. And I am not speaking from an ISO 9001 requirements stand point. I am speaking from a reasonableness standpoint. I think this is the standpoint that should be taken with MR's also. Independent of the person's title, or "outsource" status, is it reasonable for the person(s) chosen to be the MR, to be the MR? Are they dependent? Are they familiar with the quality system? Do they know the aim, goals, and strategy of the organization? Are they effective as the MR? Do they have responsibility and authority to do a), b), and c) in 5.5.2 of ISO 9001?

And I propose (I don't know for sure) that the reason ISO 9001 requires the MR to be part of management is the assumption that the person will then have direct responsibility and given authority, as required by ISO 9001.

As some point we have to balance excruciating nit picking minutia of standards and think about what is reasonable and effective. ISO 9001 says "member" and not "members" so there can only be one MR? Really?

 

[samsung]

Re: Can one Management Representative operate two sister firms

ISO 9001 says "member" and not "members" so there can only be one MR? Really?

ISO doesn't say 'only one'. just kidding.

 

[JaneB]

Re: Can one Management Representative operate two sister firms

Dirk,
Thanks for your oh so excellent post, Dirk and for the logic and common sense that underpins it.

Picking endlessly over the exact or the minutiae of the arrangements of the organisation and the 'MR' is frustrating and not a valuable exercise.

As you put it so well and succinctly:

The real intent of this clause is to have a MR that has a vested interest and is effective.

Just so!

Titles are irrelevant, as are the exact details of the arrangement between said "MR" and organisation.

Independent of the person's title, or "outsource" status, is it reasonable for the person(s) chosen to be the MR, to be the MR? Are they dependent? Are they familiar with the quality system? Do they know the aim, goals, and strategy of the organization? Are they effective as the MR? Do they have responsibility and authority to do a), b), and c) in 5.5.2 of ISO 9001?

I tend to agree with your supposition about why that 'management' requirement is in there. I assume audits found far too often with earlier versions of the Standard that the person dumped/landed/tasked with the 'quality system' too often was way down on the totem pole and had little if any ability (ie, authority) to make things happen.
And I propose (I don't know for sure) that the reason ISO 9001 requires the MR to be part of management is the assumption that the person will then have direct responsibility and given authority, as required by ISO 9001.

As some point we have to balance excruciating nit picking minutia of standards and think about what is reasonable and effective.

Yes, yes and yes again.

Preferably as soon as possible!

Samsung,
You're welcome to disagree, I never mind intelligent or polite debate. But I don't see that the ISO interpretations you quote (for which thanks, I'd forgot where they were) as being mutually exclusive. Sure, if the "MR" role were to be assigned to a consultant who only turns up occasionally and had zero responsibility and authority, AND the evidence indicated this was not an effective arrangement, then yes, the ruling is reasonable.

But note the wording in those rulings :

"we have a management representative appointed by top management, who works for the company in a managerial capacity. He is not a permanent member of staff, but works full-time on a contract basis.

To which the ruling is: OK.

"Can a person who is independent of the organization’s management (e.g. a consultant) undertake the role of management representative.

To which the ruling is: No.

One is appointed by management and works 'in a managerial capacity'. The other is independent. Big difference.

So I still content the other possibilities are there. As consultant/contractor, I've been the MR for organisations in all but name, where an MD or senior manager was the theoretical MR but I did 99% of the functions. So what? And I've seen organisations where the MR was a full time employee... but they didn't do 5% of the MR functions (but then, no one else did much either).

I do not see there's anyhing to stop someone who works as a consultant also having a particular relationship with a firm (part time employee/part time contractor/whatever) and acting as the MR. The real issue, again, is: does it work? Is it effective?

I doubt that any reasonable auditor/CB would bother to waste their time and even comment upon, let alone challenge, any such arrangement if a/there was plenty of evidence to demonstrate that it was and b/a complete absence that it wasn't.

 

[harry]

Re: Can one Management Representative operate two sister firms

From the management perspective, my interpretation of the intent of the standard is:
1. The MR must be aware of whats happening in the organization - not those that dropped by once or twice a year but neither is there a need to be there full time.
2. The MR must be able to get things done (through whichever method available - influence, persuasion, position in the management hierarchy, coercion, etc).

Anybody (irrespective of whichever title you attached) who can meet these 2 criteria should be a more effective MR.

 

[samsung]

Re: Can one Management Representative operate two sister firms

Jane,

I agree with most part of your debate in the preceding post except the following:

I do not see there's anything to stop someone who works as a consultant also having a particular relationship with a firm (part time employee/part time contractor/whatever) and acting as the MR. The real issue, again, is: does it work? Is it effective?

The key confusions clarified in the said ruling are the terms, i.e.; Consultant, Part time and MR. If a consultant is appointed to assist or work in lieu of an official MR, s/he's still an effective consultant, not MR.

Further, a consultant cannot represent the management of the organization he is providing consultancy to. He represents his own firm or to the firm's management. Secondly, a consultant cannot be assigned with the responsibilities and authorities required to plan, organize and control the management system as defined in clause 5.5.2,

a) ensuring that processes needed for the quality management system are established, implemented and maintained,
b) reporting to top management on the performance of the quality management system and any need for improvement, and
c) ensuring the promotion of awareness of customer requirements throughout the organization.

Further, MR should remain full time associated with the management as well as the management system though MR doesn't necessarily have to manage each of the processes but he needs to act as a coordinator, a facilitator and a change agent. Sometimes he may also be required to "liaison with external parties on matters relating to the quality management system" which, IMO, a part time person/ consultant cannot do.

Anyway, it was indeed a nice discussion that provided a lot of learning opportunities atleast to me.

Thank you.

 

[PE-2011]

Re: Can one Management Representative operate two sister firms

Samsung, Can you tell Somewhere I read one organization can have more than one MR. It is possible. Where it is permissing. Regards, Maheswari

 

[vanputten]

The issue is dependent vs independent. I dont think the result of the interpretation is based on part time and full time. I think the results of the 2 TC 176 interpretations is based in the use of the term dependent and independent.

In the us, boards members generally are not full time employees. They have lots of authority and responsibility.

Jane B: do you really mean to say "Who cares how?" I thought the entire basis of the standard and the Process Approach was about how we get what we get?

Samsung: I dont understand where you are getting your facts. I don't see the term "consultant" anywhere in ISO 9001. Why can't a consultant have responsibilities and authority of a MR?

Is it possible that BSI purposely used the term "should" instead of "shall?" I think so.

 

[samsung]

Samsung: I dont understand where you are getting your facts. I don't see the term "consultant" anywhere in ISO 9001. Why can't a consultant have responsibilities and authority of a MR?

ISO 9001 standard doesn't mention this but it's official interpretation clarifies that one can't appoint a consultant or part time person as MR (pl. refer attachment in Post#30, also available here (point #4)