Can our QMS Consultant Perform Internal Audits on our behalf (Conflict of Interest)?

Can a consultant hired to implement a QMS also perform 1st. Part audits to the same?

  • Yes

    Votes: 20 74.1%
  • Yes, if the company does not have a suitable Internal Auditor

    Votes: 4 14.8%
  • Better not

    Votes: 2 7.4%
  • No

    Votes: 1 3.7%

  • Total voters
    27
  • Poll closed .
H

Henriqued

#1
As a (external) consultant hired by a Company to help them implementing a QMS (ISO 9001) I recently had a problem when the certification auditor told the management that the internal audit I did was not acceptable, namely as regards the audit to the Quality Manager (a member of the company) and the Quality Management process since I was involved in the process and therefore not an "Independent" person.

My point is to argue that "non conformity" because I say that there is noting in ISO 19011 or 9001 that prevents a consultant contracted to implement a QMS of carrying on a First Part Audit, i.e., an Internal Audit also as an outsourced consultant because he is not responsible for the implementation of the QMS itself but only for giving advice.
Am I right or wrong?...

I would appreciate some URGENT views on this issue, bearing in mind that I am advising the Company to chalenge the respective NC that was raised.

Thank you
Henrique da Silva
(South Africa)
 
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Marc

Hunkered Down for the Duration with a Mask on...
Staff member
Admin
#2
You are saying you are not involved in the every day processes as an active participant, or I assume this is the case. Usually consultants don't actually play an active part in the 'every day' company systems.

If that is the case, you are technically not in conflict. You are 'independent'.

NOTE: I have made companies I have done internal audits for have someone there audit my audit in so far as my following the company's Internal Audit procedure.

IMPORTANT: By "First Part Audits" you do mean "First Party Audits", correct?

Also see: First Party Audit and 1st, 2nd and 3rd Party Audits - Definition.
 
R

ramvaidhya - 2009

#3
Re: Can our QMS Consultant Perform Internal Audits on our behalf (Conflict of Interes

We had consultant audited as internal auditor in UK. This is purely the choise of the management and suitably procedures need to address this as required.
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#4
Re: Can our QMS Consultant Perform Internal Audits on our behalf (Conflict of Interes

As a (external) consultant hired by a Company to help them implementing a QMS (ISO 9001) I recently had a problem when the certification auditor told the management that the internal audit I did was not acceptable, namely as regards the audit to the Quality Manager (a member of the company) and the Quality Management process since I was involved in the process and therefore not an "Independent" person.

My point is to argue that "non conformity" because I say that there is noting in ISO 19011 or 9001 that prevents a consultant contracted to implement a QMS of carrying on a First Part Audit, i.e., an Internal Audit also as an outsourced consultant because he is not responsible for the implementation of the QMS itself but only for giving advice.
Am I right or wrong?...

I would appreciate some URGENT views on this issue, bearing in mind that I am advising the Company to chalenge the respective NC that was raised.

Thank you
Henrique da Silva
(South Africa)

I agree with Marc. We see this situation in our audits sometimes, and have not had an issue. We generally consider the value to the company vs. the perception of "auditing your own work." You are auditing processes, and can audit any process you do not run. The fact that you helped them implement it some time ago should not be a factor, unless you are not independent of the process.
 
J

joshua_sx1

#5
Re: Can our QMS Consultant Perform Internal Audits on our behalf (Conflict of Interes

...the only provision in ISO 9001:2000 clause 8.2.2 is that the auditor shall not audit their own work… :rolleyes:

…so, as long as the consultant that is going to audit you (either first, second or third party audit) is not the one who made (developed) your QMS, I don’t think you’ll have problem with that… :cool:
 

Paul Simpson

Trusted Information Resource
#6
Re: Can our QMS Consultant Perform Internal Audits on our behalf (Conflict of Interes

...the only provision in ISO 9001:2000 clause 8.2.2 is that the auditor shall not audit their own work… :rolleyes:

…so, as long as the consultant that is going to audit you (either first, second or third party audit) is not the one who made (developed) your QMS, I don’t think you’ll have problem with that… :cool:
I don't believe the intention is to exclude a system developer / documenter from auditing what others are doing. Otherwise a quality manager (MR) cannot have any involvement in audit - as they have overall responsibility.

IMHO the intent is that if I am doing something that is covered by a procedure then I cannot audit that activity. So a QM might, for example be excluded from auditing document approval but not the process covered by the document.
 

Randy

Super Moderator
#7
Re: Can our QMS Consultant Perform Internal Audits on our behalf (Conflict of Interes

Yeah, don't get all wrapped around the axle worrying about COI internally because in the end that independance stuff guarantees diddly.....

Can the person audit objectively and impartially?

It's impartiality and objectivity thats truly important.

Besides, in a single person company how could independence occur? And don't say hire somebody to do it or get the local ASQ dude....
 

Coury Ferguson

Moderator here to help
Staff member
Super Moderator
#8
Re: Can our QMS Consultant Perform Internal Audits on our behalf (Conflict of Interes

Let's put another twist on this question:

Case Scenario

A person has been hired by a Company as a permanent employee, to be responsible for the entire Business System (QMS), in a position of authority to make changes.

The company hired a consultant to install a Quality Management System (ISO or AS). The system has been in place for approx. 2 years. There has been internal audits performed, by the Consultant.

The new person comes in and performs a complete round of internal audits including all processes and elements to the required standard.

Being that this new person is responsible for the entire Business System (QMS), would this, in the scenario, be considered auditing their own work (responsible for) or would this be considered independent also?


Added: I extended this poll for 30 days vs 5
 
Last edited:
Q

QA-Man

#9
Re: Can our QMS Consultant Perform Internal Audits on our behalf (Conflict of Interes

A person has been hired by a Company as a permanent employee, to be responsible for the entire Business System (QMS), in a position of some authority to make changes.

The company hired a consultant to install a Quality Management System (ISO or AS). The system has been in place for approx. 2 years. There has been internal audits performed, by the Consultant.

The new person comes in and performs a complete round of internal audits including all processes and elements to the required standard.

Being that this new person is responsible for the entire Business System (QMS), would this, in the scenario, be considered auditing their own work (responsible for) or would this be considered independent also?
This is a good one. I would say it would be considered independent.

The auditor shall not audit his/her own work. In this scenario they have not actually done any of the work they are auditing.
 

Paul Simpson

Trusted Information Resource
#10
Re: Can our QMS Consultant Perform Internal Audits on our behalf (Conflict of Interes

Let's put another twist on this question:

Case Scenario

A person has been hired by a Company as a permanent employee, to be responsible for the entire Business System (QMS), in a position of authority to make changes.

The new person comes in and performs a complete round of internal audits including all processes and elements to the required standard.

Being that this new person is responsible for the entire Business System (QMS), would this, in the scenario, be considered auditing their own work (responsible for) or would this be considered independent also?
I took out the bit about the consultant as I don't feel it is relevant. :)

The new hire can audit any area (so long as they are competent in auditing) except those they are directly involved in (i.e. they are actually "doing" stuff covered by a procedure (whether documented or not)).
 
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