Can our QMS Consultant Perform Internal Audits on our behalf (Conflict of Interest)?

Can a consultant hired to implement a QMS also perform 1st. Part audits to the same?

  • Yes

    Votes: 20 74.1%
  • Yes, if the company does not have a suitable Internal Auditor

    Votes: 4 14.8%
  • Better not

    Votes: 2 7.4%
  • No

    Votes: 1 3.7%

  • Total voters
    27
  • Poll closed .
J

joshua_sx1

#61
Re: Can our QMS Consultant Perform Internal Audits on our behalf (Conflict of Interes

:notme: hmmm? “Auditor shall not audit their own work”… simple as that… and yet we cannot agree on one principle… :eek:

…I guess, the best way is for us to define first what is meant by “work” on this sentence and its applicability... e.g. is it only applies to the direct work done by the auditor when the organization is developing the QMS?... or it is also covering “advises” given by the auditor during the development of QMS?...

…once we settle the definition of “work” in this sentence, then we could probably come out with the same principle… :)
 
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Randy

Super Moderator
#62
Re: Can our QMS Consultant Perform Internal Audits on our behalf (Conflict of Interes

Way back to the OP......

ISO 19011 doesn't say anything about auditors not auditing their own work.....

ISO 9001 is very specific, but ISO 14001 doesn't prohibit it and neither does, OHSAS 18001, PAS 99, or BS 25999

So what's the correct answer?;)
 
J

joshua_sx1

#63
Re: Can our QMS Consultant Perform Internal Audits on our behalf (Conflict of Interes

...he he he.. you’ll love things to be complicated… :)

…but you’ve got point there… now, the members of ISO/TC 176/SC 2 will have another “issue” to consider during the review of these standards…
 

Randy

Super Moderator
#64
Re: Can our QMS Consultant Perform Internal Audits on our behalf (Conflict of Interes

...he he he.. you’ll love things to be complicated… :)

…but you’ve got point there… now, the members of ISO/TC 176/SC 2 will have another “issue” to consider during the review of these standards…
You betcha! The confusion starts at the top just like the inconsistency.

Of course TC 176 doesn't have anything to do with 14001, 18001, PAS 99 or 25999 as well as many others
 
J

joshua_sx1

#65
Re: Can our QMS Consultant Perform Internal Audits on our behalf (Conflict of Interes

…there is actually a requirement for an audit to be independent (by nature) as given by its definition…

…ISO 9000:2005 defines audit as systematic, independent and documented process for obtaining audit evidence and evaluating it objectively to determine the extent to which audit criteria are fulfilled…

…now, if all ISO standards (e.g. ISO9001, 14001 & OHSAS 18001, etc) recognized ISO9000 and compatible with that standard, as what ISO is claiming, then the auditor’s independency is a must… it doesn't need to specifically specify the word "independent" on those standards since the definition itself should be already enough to make it as a requirement... :rolleyes:
 

Randy

Super Moderator
#66
Re: Can our QMS Consultant Perform Internal Audits on our behalf (Conflict of Interes

It says the "process" should be independant, not the person (auditor). Basically the same definition exists for 14K, 18k and is used in 19011.
 
J

joshua_sx1

#67
Re: Can our QMS Consultant Perform Internal Audits on our behalf (Conflict of Interes

:rolleyes: …well, I guess, we can considered auditor as part of the process… afterall, a process is a set of interrelated or interacting activities which transforms inputs into outputs… and we would probably agreed that “manpower” (or human resource) is part of each activities - since “manpower” is also contributing force to the conversion process (like machines, equipments, tools, etc.)…

…one more thing, I remember also that even the IRCA Form 106/07/01 referring to the guidance notes for audit log mentioned the requirements of auditor's independency from the operational activities he is auditing... Ok, IRCA is not part of ISO requirements… but even them knew the importance of auditor independency…

...otherwise, they will not highlight that requirements on their audit logs…
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#68
Re: Can our QMS Consultant Perform Internal Audits on our behalf (Conflict of Interes

:rolleyes: …well, I guess, we can considered auditor as part of the process… afterall, a process is a set of interrelated or interacting activities which transforms inputs into outputs… and we would probably agreed that “manpower” (or human resource) is part of each activities - since “manpower” is also contributing force to the conversion process (like machines, equipments, tools, etc.)…

…one more thing, I remember also that even the IRCA Form 106/07/01 referring to the guidance notes for audit log mentioned the requirements of auditor's independency from the operational activities he is auditing... Ok, IRCA is not part of ISO requirements… but even them knew the importance of auditor independency…

...otherwise, they will not highlight that requirements on their audit logs…
You know Josh, you are still making the same arguments that I already answered in post 51, 54 and 56. And others have answered many times as well. You are parsing words, when the standard is just looking at a concept.

Independence is important and necessary, but the key question centers on whether the auditor must be independent from the documents, the process being audited, or both.

According to the poll, approx 66% of us believe that the auditor must have some appropriate "separation" (I am trying to use a generic word) from the process being audited, and we are not concerned whether he helped write the underlying documents. The fact that he is an outsider already gives him that independence.
 
J

joshua_sx1

#69
Re: Can our QMS Consultant Perform Internal Audits on our behalf (Conflict of Interes

…OK… :eek: I’m just only sharing my pov… I guess, if the things have been settled, the thread should be closed for posting… so, guys like me will stop eavesdropping… :mybad:

:2cents: ...I guess, the standard does not looking at a concept… it is enforcing the concept…
 
L

Laura M

#70
Re: Can our QMS Consultant Perform Internal Audits on our behalf (Conflict of Interes

I guess I"m jumping in very late here, and skimmed the majority of the thread. The consultant can most definately perform internal audits. If you can find a procedure that says 'our consultant is responsible for <insert ISO requirement> eg. document control' then no, they can't audit that requirement. It should read the Quality Manager is responsible.

The only process I can't audit at companies I consulted with and perform internal audits for is the internal audit process.

If an consultant/auditor is sitting in an audit and saying 'your Quality Policy doesn't meet the requirements of 5.3' and they were your consultant, I'd be looking for a new consultant and auditor. The written procedures/documented processes establish 'responsibility' and none should point to the consultant, except perhaps the Internal Audit procedure, which as I already stated, the auditor can't audit their own audits!!!!!
 
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