Can the Auditor close down the Corrective Actions?

P

pearson114

#1
Hi all,

I have recently joined a new company and I am responsible for the QMS and all things related, including internal audits.

Hitting the ground running, I'm conducting my first audit next Wednesday (Management Commitment, to help me figure out what input into Quality the Top Management team have) and a thought has just struck my mind...

I know already that there are gaps in the QMS and significant improvements required, hence my employment. But it's my remit to ensure that the QMS is sorted, if I raise an NCR during an internal audit, can I close that NCR out?

The standard (AS9100C) obviously states that auditors should not audited their own work, which I wouldn't be doing, and it also states the management responsible for the area being audited is responsible for any corrective actions resulting from the audit.

As I will be project managing the improvements to the QMS, am I permitted to put my name against some of the corrective actions?

(Please don't misunderstand my intentions here, I'm not trying to 'let people off' with actions, I'm just looking to manage the corrective actions with others having their required input also)

Thanks :)
 
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somashekar

Leader
Admin
#2
Hi all,

I have recently joined a new company and I am responsible for the QMS and all things related, including internal audits.

Hitting the ground running, I'm conducting my first audit next Wednesday (Management Commitment, to help me figure out what input into Quality the Top Management team have) and a thought has just struck my mind...

I know already that there are gaps in the QMS and significant improvements required, hence my employment. But it's my remit to ensure that the QMS is sorted, if I raise an NCR during an internal audit, can I close that NCR out?

The standard (AS9100C) obviously states that auditors should not audited their own work, which I wouldn't be doing, and it also states the management responsible for the area being audited is responsible for any corrective actions resulting from the audit.

As I will be project managing the improvements to the QMS, am I permitted to put my name against some of the corrective actions?

(Please don't misunderstand my intentions here, I'm not trying to 'let people off' with actions, I'm just looking to manage the corrective actions with others having their required input also)

Thanks :)
There is no need at all to internal audit right away when gaps are known. What is of more importance is to close gaps by proper understanding of the same as applicable to the organization, and find out if they are effective and then schedule an internal audit to sample cases.
If you want to audit, find a non conformance and then fix it yourself, why not go fix it straight away, and then after some period let an audit by any trained internal auditor see the system effectiveness.
 
P

pearson114

#3
We have to keep to an audit schedule for the year, therefore if I was to fix everything first (there are a LOT of things that need fixing) I wouldn't have time towards the end of the year to complete a full audit plan.

If I was to audit, report findings and then formally raise it as an internal NCR, it would demonstrate an effective audit process... right?
 

Jen Kirley

Quality and Auditing Expert
Leader
Admin
#4
We have to keep to an audit schedule for the year, therefore if I was to fix everything first (there are a LOT of things that need fixing) I wouldn't have time towards the end of the year to complete a full audit plan.

If I was to audit, report findings and then formally raise it as an internal NCR, it would demonstrate an effective audit process... right?
It would certainly help to demonstrate you aren't just whitewashing things, and it would give your system opportunity to exercise the corrective action process.
 

TPMB4

Quite Involved in Discussions
#5
It sounds like you know a lot of what needs fixing which common sense in me says fix them and let a later audit find new concerns / confirm the fixes. The employee part of me says audit then use NCR and CA to fix it and show you are making an impact. If that makes sense.

For the company it matters that the issues are fixed so part of me says fix it as you find it.

For you, as a new employee brought in to manage the QMS, you want to have clear wins to make an impact. By ignoring issues until auditing then going through the CA process you will have successes in your name. You look good. However you are leaving a known issue which is not good.

Hope that explains my opinion clearer. I'm no expert just find a degree of common sense goes a long way.

PS just spotted your location. Blackburn...my old neck of the woods. It's changed a lot since I was there. I'm guessing you could be on the industrial estates around the Brownhill roundabout to Shadsworth road. The side of that road on the town side. Judging by your comment about AS9100C.
 
G

Geoff Withnell

#7
Ok, at some point, the internal audit system will be audited, right? At that point someone else will be doing the auditing, not you. I would go ahead and take the actions on the NCRs that fall into your area of responsibility, and close them when done. When the internal audit system is reviewed, have that auditor review the actions and resolutions, and sign off as appropriate (or write up if necessary). That should keep your skirts clean.

Hi all,

I have recently joined a new company and I am responsible for the QMS and all things related, including internal audits.

Hitting the ground running, I'm conducting my first audit next Wednesday (Management Commitment, to help me figure out what input into Quality the Top Management team have) and a thought has just struck my mind...

I know already that there are gaps in the QMS and significant improvements required, hence my employment. But it's my remit to ensure that the QMS is sorted, if I raise an NCR during an internal audit, can I close that NCR out?

The standard (AS9100C) obviously states that auditors should not audited their own work, which I wouldn't be doing, and it also states the management responsible for the area being audited is responsible for any corrective actions resulting from the audit.

As I will be project managing the improvements to the QMS, am I permitted to put my name against some of the corrective actions?

(Please don't misunderstand my intentions here, I'm not trying to 'let people off' with actions, I'm just looking to manage the corrective actions with others having their required input also)

Thanks :)
 
K

KathySmith

#8
As a new QM and QMS overseer and with complete freedom, I first audited the whole internal audit program. Identified gaps and followed the paperwork trails or lack of. This builds confidence and credibility as you are focused on the heart of the QMS. It also gives you a reason to be in all areas learning and understanding the new company and culture in a short time reviewing all QMS related systems. You get to ask all the questions. But if your management team has already pointed out weaknesses or you can clearly see the gaps, or have already completed a simple gap analysis, no sense "beating around the bush"... Go fix these items first.
 
F

fuzzy

#9
Hi all,

I have recently joined a new company and I am responsible for the QMS and all things related, including internal audits.

Hitting the ground running, I'm conducting my first audit next Wednesday (Management Commitment, to help me figure out what input into Quality the Top Management team have) and a thought has just struck my mind...

I know already that there are gaps in the QMS and significant improvements required, hence my employment. But it's my remit to ensure that the QMS is sorted, if I raise an NCR during an internal audit, can I close that NCR out?

The standard (AS9100C) obviously states that auditors should not audited their own work, which I wouldn't be doing, and it also states the management responsible for the area being audited is responsible for any corrective actions resulting from the audit.

As I will be project managing the improvements to the QMS, am I permitted to put my name against some of the corrective actions?

(Please don't misunderstand my intentions here, I'm not trying to 'let people off' with actions, I'm just looking to manage the corrective actions with others having their required input also)

Thanks :)
So many questions, so little time...to fix:tg: Let's see...if I were you I would:

1.) Continue to operate the Internal Audit system to schedule or a modified schedule as you determine the need to change things. IA will produce valuable inputs into the CA system, which if effective will improve the QMS, and through tracking and follow-up produce objective evidence for review.

2.) I would document a few of the "major" known system failings within the CA system and work a cross-functional team to solve them. Do not assign yourself to an item unless it is clearly a 90+ % item of your responsibility:bonk:. My experiences are that most QMS's fail because they are a "one-person" system. The person goes and down goes the QMS :mad:. Don't allow this to start on your watch. Broaden out involvement strategically and strengthen your company.

3.) For items that are clearly yours, yes you can assign yourself, but someone else (is there an internal audit team?) should verify the CA as effective before the item is closed out. Don't know about AS, but ISO doesn't have a specific ban on an auditor assigning themselves a CA. Just the "your own work" clause. I suggest the above to remove any conflict of interest appearance to internal or external reviewers.

4.) Are you the Management Representative? The Lead Internal Auditor? Document Control Officer? Corrective Action Administrator? All of the above?
Answers to the above will determine the scope of your influence on the QMS and it's improvement. I have been / done all of the above (sometimes at one company) and still my system failed :notme:when I was injured and out of work for a time period...so good luck on your quest and keep asking for help here in the Cove. You're in the right place.:applause:
 
S

silentrunning

#10
The first thing I would do is a Gap Analysis. Quantify what needs fixing and then have a Management Review. Once you are there, it will be a lot easier to delegate responsibility and move forward. An audit so soon seems like trying to enter your house thru the bathroom window. Yeah, it can be done but it isn't the preferred method.
 
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