Can The Internal Auditor Also Be The Management Representative?

[Howard Atkins]

Management is the case of the MR is a status, white collar/blue collar, salaried/hourly, management/worker.

Also see the following Interpretations for 5.5.2

 

[Crash Not]

I have been both the M.R. and internal auditor here since our registration in 2000. This arrangement is perfectly acceptable with our registrar.

 

[Sidney Vianna]

The level of understanding of "quality management" is not really relevant as long as the person is "competent" to perform their role within the QMS.

:mg: Yikes. How could someone be an effective management representative if s/he does not have a "good" understanding of quality management principles and concepts? How could an ignorant (from a quality management perspective) individual be competent to perform as a management representative?

 

[silentrunning]

I serve as Quality System Manager, Management Representative and perform internal audits. I have never had any problem from our 3rd part auditors - yet.

Doug

 

[Randy]

:mg: Yikes. How could someone be an effective management representative if s/he does not have a "good" understanding of quality management principles and concepts? How could an ignorant (from a quality management perspective) individual be competent to perform as a management representative?

By understanding how the "System" operates. One of the best MR's I vere met was a Civil Engineer. He couldn't speak more than 2 minutes about "Quality" but he sure knew who, what, how, why, when and everthing else about the "System" he was responsible for.

In essence the MR is nothing more than a Project or Program Manager. He/she doesn't have to be a subject matter expert for requirements to be met and goals achieved....look at Leslie R. Groves as an example of what I'm talking about. The MR is supposed to manage it, not necessarily do it.

 

[Sidney Vianna]

By understanding how the "System" operates.

Ineffective systems "operate", get audited, pass audits, get kudos, etc... Case in point, the system described in this thread. If the management reps know how the "system operates" but doesn't know how the system should operate effectively and efficiently, s/he just perpetuates dysfunctional QMS's.
Don't get me wrong. Many management representatives out there are totally incompetent, just like many internal auditors. But just because it is the reality for many organizations, it does not make it right.
I contend that, in order to be an effective management representative, the individual should know what modern quality management is. The competence requirements of ISO 9001 must also apply to the management representative function. I am surprised that ASQ has not yet developed a "CERTIFIED MANAGEMENT REPRESENTATIVE" program yet.

 

[Randy]

Many management representatives out there are totally incompetent, just like many internal auditors.

I am surprised that ASQ has not yet developed a "CERTIFIED MANAGEMENT REPRESENTATIVE" program yet.

Competency applies to all who have a role within the system...including Top Management.

I agree about the ASQ thing I would also suggest a Certified Certifier of Certificate Certification

Or maybe the RABQSA could do.

 

[Sidney Vianna]

and I do not see why it should be!

Titles are irrelevant. The question would be if you have the authority to effect changes in the QMS processes, as a quality engineer. The function of the MR is commonly misunderstood and delegated to people with no organizational authority to implement real changes, when necessary.

 

[chaosweary]

Regarding the comment on auditing your own work - No third party auditor in my small 12yrs of experience ever asked a question or cared about if an internal auditor audited their own work. I have worked on many a quality team and then audited the process. So don't think you can't have someone that hasn't done the work too. ISO may state it, but its rarely if ever enforced.

 

[Stijloor]

Regarding the comment on auditing your own work - No third party auditor in my small 12yrs of experience ever asked a question or cared about if an internal auditor audited their own work. I have worked on many a quality team and then audited the process. So don't think you can't have someone that hasn't done the work too. ISO may state it, but its rarely if ever enforced.

I respectfully disagree. The fact that this requirement was never "enforced", as you state it, does not make it right. There is a reason for each of the requirements in the Standard.

Stijloor.