Can The Internal Auditor Also Be The Management Representative?

[chaosweary]

I agree, your understanding of the requirement is accurate. I was just reflecting that the requirement is of little or no consequence materially to persons in the same situation as the poster. The application of which, is aside from any other principled considerations.

 

[Randy]

Regarding the comment on auditing your own work - No third party auditor in my small 12yrs of experience ever asked a question or cared about if an internal auditor audited their own work. I have worked on many a quality team and then audited the process. So don't think you can't have someone that hasn't done the work too. ISO may state it, but its rarely if ever enforced.

Most likely because it was determined that the auditor acted in an impartial, objective and unbiased manner, which is more important than independant.

 

[arin_23]

I've often thought this an interesting requirement 'a member of management'. What does that mean?

Very interesting point indeed...what is the exact meaning of the phrase? It should not necessarily be the top management.He/she can be a member of the Quality Management too.

I fully agree with Randy that the MR can be anyone irrespective of his / her profile in the organization till he/she knows the reponsibilities well. The only problem lies in the fact that if he/she is a lower level employee how much authority will be given to him/her and how the other high ranked employees are going to obey his /her commands in quality aspects.

Cheers

Arindam

 

[amanbhai]

I am Management Representative & the internal quality auditor as well.
I beleive its not agiainst any ISO clause.

 

[Martijn]

I fully agree with Randy that the MR can be anyone irrespective of his / her profile in the organization till he/she knows the reponsibilities well. The only problem lies in the fact that if he/she is a lower level employee how much authority will be given to him/her and how the other high ranked employees are going to obey his /her commands in quality aspects.

Cheers

Arindam

I agree here. My take on this requirement has always been that a MR should at least have access to the highest levels of management. This can mean that the MR has a regular meeting with highest management, or sits in on management meetings, or meets management regularly at the coffee machine. If that is in place, it's not a matter of "obeying and listening to commands" and such. Higher management doesn't obey. You have to explain them what they should do, and should be able to convince them.

If you're a really good MR you then make them believe it was their idea in the first place.

 

[Martijn]

Management is the case of the MR is a status, white collar/blue collar, salaried/hourly, management/worker.

Also see the following Interpretations for 5.5.2

Good link, thanks for that. Sadly enough some of the interpretations do not really provide more insight though

Request: ISO 9001:2000 Clause 5.5.2

In our organization we have a management representative appointed by top management, who works for the company in a managerial capacity. He is not a permanent member of staff, but works full-time on a contract basis. Is it allowable under the standard, for such a person to act as the organization’s management representative?

Interpretation: Yes

 

[Coury Ferguson]

Hello

Me again !

On initial set up we gave someone else the responsibility of Management Rep but he has not undergone any training to date to bring his level of understanding of Iso9001 up to the required level. So, now we have decided to allocate the role of Management Rep to our main internal auditor. Will this be OK ?

I assume this will be OK as long as another Internal Auditor audits a) her work and b)the Management Representative role and responsibilities (including the Management Review process) which she also is responsible for. Is this correct ?

Thanks

Getting back to the original question:

Yes, the Management Representative could be the Internal Auditor. The Management Representative needs to have good knowledge of the Business practices, processes, and the Standard, in my opinion.

As for auditing their own work...this doesn't matter as the Management Representative. The Management Representative, is a guide for the External Auditor, and is not acting on behalf as the Internal Auditor for the company.

Yes, there would be some competency issues as stated above.

It really boils down to...is the Management Representative given the authority to make recommendations to the QMS and changes to the organization after the results of the Certification Body (CB) findings/recommendations?

Or better yet, will Top Management make the appropriate changes to the QMS to improve the way the Business is run?

 

[Gary E MacLean]

Hello

Me again !

On initial set up we gave someone else the responsibility of Management Rep but he has not undergone any training to date to bring his level of understanding of Iso9001 up to the required level. So, now we have decided to allocate the role of Management Rep to our main internal auditor. Will this be OK ?

I assume this will be OK as long as another Internal Auditor audits a) her work and b)the Management Representative role and responsibilities (including the Management Review process) which she also is responsible for. Is this correct ?

Thanks

The only potential problem I see is the apparent belief that the Management Rep is responsible for the Management review Process. ISO clearly delegates Top Management as responsible for Management review

5.1.d "Top Management shall provide evidence of commitment... by... conducting management reviews..."

also at

5.6.1 "Top Managemet shalol review the organization's quality management system..."

The closest the MR comes to being responsible for maagemet review is at

5.5.2.b "...reporting to managemet on the performace..."

MR reports to management but Top Management conducts the review.

As far as anyone being internal auditor, that's the key - anyone can be internal auditor as long as they exercise impartiality and objectivity (8.2.2.b) and have been shown as competent in the auditing function (6.2.2.a / b / c.

GMAC49