Can the Management Representative Do Internal Audits?

P

PeterL

#11
Manoj and Cindy, thanks for your comments. The issue here is not whether an MR would make a good auditor. I quite agree with you that an MR is usually well qualified to be an auditor, having not only auditing skills but a good knowledge of the system. The question is: Will 3rd party auditors accept internal audits conducted by MRs or would they claim that the MR is not adequateley "independent of the work".
 
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A

Angela-2007

#12
As long as the Mgmt. Rep is independent of the subject then it is fine. What I utilize is an "Approved Auditor Listing". I list each element and who is qualified and independent of the subject. I also state that if the auditor is auditing and they venture into an area that they may not be independent of then they will abdicate from the audit. I am the Mgmt Rep and I audit everything except Management Resp, Internal Audits, Training. Otherwise I am good to go. Also the requirement states "when possible" If you work for a small company and the funding is not there to employ more than one auditor, that is an argument in itself. Anyway I have never had a problem with an external auditor regarding my internal audits. As a matter of fact I have receive several reports from my surveillance audits commending my internal auditing system and the extensive corrective action that I perform.

Angela
 
C

CINDY

#13
I THINK THAT MOST 3RD PARTY AUDITORS WILL ACCEPT YOU AUDITING AREAS THAT YOU ARE NOT DIRECTLY MANAGING. ANGELA IS CORRECT IN STATING THAT YOU SHOULD ASK YOUR AUDITOR.
 
M

MrPhish

#14
Alternate Method to Skin the Cat?

Looks like everyone agrees the MR can audit most of the QMS, except for those activities the MR performs directly. So you end up having to find someone to perform the audit and document the results for those few processes/work directly accomplished by the MR. Everyone also seems to agree you can hire a qualified subcontractor to review these MR accomplished processes and document the results.

Alternate method: ... since the registrar always audits those processes directly accomplished by the MR during every surveillance audit ... why can't you use the results (this only works if the results are positive) of the last surveillance audit by your registrar (who is also a hired subcontractor) to support the "audit programme planning process by considering" not to audit the MR activities in question because the “status” of these activities are known to be acceptable via “previous audit results”?

I'm only focusing on those processes directly accomplished by the MR that he/she can't audit themselves. All other QMS activities and processes are audited IAW clause 8.2.2. What is the clause of the ISO 2000 standard that prevents this from happening?

Based on 8.2.2 "audit programme planning", "consideration of status and importance" and "consideration of previous audit results" is this a viable interpretation? Just thinking out loud about value added processes.
 
C

CINDY

#15
MrPhish,

I am not sure if that would fly. The standard requires all to be audited. Run it past your Auditor. If that was acceptable, than internal audits would not be necessary. It would be interesting to see what he has to say about it.

Good Luck
 
M

MrPhish

#16
My next surveillance audit is in 2 weeks and I am certainly planning to check. In the mean time, where in the standard does it say to audit ALL? It's not in 8.2.2 that I can see and that's why I would appreciate some other interpretations.

I disagree that if true internals audits would not be necessary, as 8.2.2 clearly states "The orgainization shall conduct internal audits at planned intervals ... which means some amount of auditing is required, my point being the ALL requirement is not stated.

Again, I'm not looking to "get out of performing any audits", I'm looking at an interpretation that allows a minimal amount of flexibility so additional cost resources are not required .. if not needed.
 
C

CINDY

#17
MrPhish

8.2.2.4, Internal audits shall cover all quality management related processes, activities and shifts, and shall be scheduled according to an annual plan.

8.2.3, shall apply suitable methods for monitoring and where applicable, measurement of the quality management system processes. These methods shall demonstrate the ability of the processes to achieve planned results.

These are just a few. One tool to measure the quality system is internal audits. If you don't audit your internal audit process, how do you know it is effective? Internal audits is a management related process and must be included in the audit schedule and reported.

The quote in 8.2.2.4 "All quality management related processes"

Are you the only Internal Auditor for your company?

Hope this helps.

Cindy
 
M

MrPhish

#18
Cindy - All of your input is helpful and I appreciate your time. Just trying to understand all your points.

ISO 9001:2000 does not have a clause 8.2.2.4 so I'm lost there.

Clause 8.2.3 addresses applying "suitable" methods for monitoring and measurement of QMS processes, with suitability being determined by the organization. I do not interpret 8.2.3 as addressing auditing, but then that's part of interpretation.

As you correctly point out "one tool to measure the quality system is internal audits, but not the only tool. IMHO processes can be measured and monitored without conducting internal audits.

I'm not trying to be a "Sea Lawyer" looking for loopholes ... just looking at the standard and trying to be resource effective and still add value to the process.
 
C

CINDY

#19
MrPhish

I guess you would be confused about clause clause 8.2.2.4. That specific clause is from ISO 16949. I forgot that you were referring to ISO 9000:2000.

Two weeks is not that far away. Discuss your reasons and alternative methods of monitoring. If may be acceptable.

Either way, let me know what the final result is.

Good Luck,

Cindy
 
M

MrPhish

#20
Cindy - Thanks for the input and your thoughts. I'll let you what my registrar says. Of course he is an auditor and by definition can't tell me if my methods are OK ... only if I pass or fail.
 
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