Can Training feature in a Process FMEA

I

Isocyanate

#1
Hi there,

We've been audited recently. And the auditor commented that training cannot be use in an an FMEA as part of reducing a failure. The reasoning behind this is that the operator should already be competent in the process and therefore training cannot be used as a reduction of a failure mode.
My point is that- what if there is new technology or operator negligence etc- would not retraining be appropriate..?? he did have a point with regards to competency.

Our sister company's Group QA Manager says that training most definitely can feature in an FMEA

Advice anyone?

Thnx
 
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somashekar

Staff member
Super Moderator
#2
Re: Can training feature in an FMEA

Training is necessary everywhere and always. I cannot see training as a control measure to show how this as a control reduces a failure. This can not justify by a change in score.
 

harry

Super Moderator
#3
Re: Can training feature in an FMEA

Hi there,

We've been audited recently. And the auditor commented that training cannot be use in an an FMEA as part of reducing a failure. The reasoning behind this is that the operator should already be competent in the process and therefore training cannot be used as a reduction of a failure mode.
My point is that- what if there is new technology or operator negligence etc- would not retraining be appropriate..?? he did have a point with regards to competency.

Our sister company's Group QA Manager says that training most definitely can feature in an FMEA

Advice anyone?

Thnx
We had similar debates in thread #3 & #4 of the list of 'similar discussions'.
See: 'Training' as a Prevention Control in a Process FMEA?
 
D

deepkba

#4
Re: Can training feature in an FMEA

Hi there
Training is THE tool to upgrade Human capital - thus training can feature in FMEA

kailash
 

qusys

Trusted Information Resource
#5
Re: Can training feature in an FMEA

Hi there,

We've been audited recently. And the auditor commented that training cannot be use in an an FMEA as part of reducing a failure. The reasoning behind this is that the operator should already be competent in the process and therefore training cannot be used as a reduction of a failure mode.
My point is that- what if there is new technology or operator negligence etc- would not retraining be appropriate..?? he did have a point with regards to competency.

Our sister company's Group QA Manager says that training most definitely can feature in an FMEA

Advice anyone?

Thnx
You cannot talk about of a reduction of the failure mode when you perform an FMEA, but you must attack the reduction of RPN of the POTENTIAL failure mode among the highest ones in a Pareto analysis. I agree with the auditor saying that. You shall use FMEA in prevention of the potential failure mode, trying to work at recommended action to reduce occurrence or improve detectivity. Training in itself does not enough. If you change procedures, systems or introduce new control sand so on , then you shall also retrain operators, but it is a new condition when you review the FMEA in case of a change, coming from ,for example, an external failure on the product:bigwave:
 
#6
Re: Can training feature in an FMEA

Hi there,

We've been audited recently. And the auditor commented that training cannot be use in an an FMEA as part of reducing a failure. The reasoning behind this is that the operator should already be competent in the process and therefore training cannot be used as a reduction of a failure mode.
My point is that- what if there is new technology or operator negligence etc- would not retraining be appropriate..?? he did have a point with regards to competency.

Our sister company's Group QA Manager says that training most definitely can feature in an FMEA

Advice anyone?

Thnx
Your auditor is correct. If you think this through, any training would simply reinforce the things that lead to the failure, so retraining hasn't worked either. That's why competency is so important. Also, no-one should be set to a task without being proven competent. So, if there's a failure it's in the process for identifying competency or in the planning phases, where competencies should have been defined.

If the QA Manager thinks training is a control in an FMEA, maybe he's not yet competent to perform an FMEA...:notme:;) But he's probably what we call 'unconsciously incompetent' - "He doesn't know what he doesn't know"!
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#8
Re: Can training feature in an FMEA

Your auditor is correct. If you think this through, any training would simply reinforce the things that lead to the failure, so retraining hasn't worked either. That's why competency is so important. Also, no-one should be set to a task without being proven competent. So, if there's a failure it's in the process for identifying competency or in the planning phases, where competencies should have been defined.

If the QA Manager thinks training is a control in an FMEA, maybe he's not yet competent to perform an FMEA...:notme:;) But he's probably what we call 'unconsciously incompetent' - "He doesn't know what he doesn't know"!
The suggestion that one who thinks that training is a form of prevention is incompetent is shortsighted and insulting. A reasonable PFMEA process takes into account everything anyone can think of that might go wrong, and everything that's been done to prevent something bad from happening. If I look at a PFMEA and see a series of "Operator Training" entries in the prevention controls field, and little or nothing else, I would be concerned. On the other hand, if operator training is cited amongst other preventive controls, and the PFMEA document as a whole appears to be the result of a conscientious process, no harm is done by the "training" entries.

There is no official (AIAG/SAE) proscription against citing operator training as a prevention control, so unless the auditor was in a position to dictate requirements, she was off base.
 
#9
Re: Can training feature in an FMEA

The suggestion that one who thinks that training is a form of prevention is incompetent is shortsighted and insulting.
That's not how it was meant, Jim, so I'm not sure why you're suggesting that. The 4 Phases of Adult learning go from "Unconsciously incompetent, consciously incompetent, to consciously competent and unconsciously competent. These are terms used in the training industry to describe the various stages we all go through. Nothing more or less.
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#10
Re: Can training feature in an FMEA

That's not how it was meant, Jim, so I'm not sure why you're suggesting that. The 4 Phases of Adult learning go from "Unconsciously incompetent, consciously incompetent, to consciously competent and unconsciously competent. These are terms used in the training industry to describe the various stages we all go through. Nothing more or less.
Oh, I understand. A person who accepts training as a prevention control is either unconsciously incompetent, or conciously incompetent, but not, you know, actually incompetent. Thanks for clearing that up.
 
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