Can You Internally Audit a Process You Own?

Elsmar Forum Sponsor

John Broomfield

Staff member
Super Moderator
#12
Just because you own a process this doesn’t mean that you also to the work specified by its procedure. You may then be sufficiently independent to audit it for its conformity and effectiveness.

I would however be concerned if monitoring a process for its conformity and effectiveness had been replaced by auditing.

As we know, monitoring does not have to be independent whereas audit has to be independent otherwise it’s not audit.
 

John Broomfield

Staff member
Super Moderator
#13
Trust but verify or trust but be a bit skeptical is usually the way to go.

Usually, by seeking evidence of effectiveness the auditor will win the cooperation of the auditee.

As a result the auditee will often admit the nonconformity before the auditor has to declare it.

Additionally, auditors always check out what looks a bit odd.
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#14
This is a form of denial, that you are rolling the dice on quality, rather than managing it.
Obviously you can audit your own processes. You can also jump off a cliff and shoot yourself in the foot, if you feel like it.

What is your real question?
Apparently your experience is different from mine. I never saw an audit of any kind as a search-and-destroy mission. If you believe that people can't be objective about processes they "own," you have worked with people who are incompetent and should not have been allowed to persist in their process ownership. It is indeed all about management.
 

Crusader

Trusted Information Resource
#16
I am the QA and the QMS manager for a small manufacturer with less than 40 full time employees. Thus I own the QA process and the Internal Audit process. There is an assistant auditor who normally audits the QA process being that I own that process. The problem is that we have no one to audit the Internal Audit process because the assistant auditor audits the QA process, while I audit all the others. There isn't an uninvolved third auditor to audit the internal audits. There will not be a third auditor ever because, as those of you who work at a small company know, everyone wears multiple hats and is already spread thin. I'm lucky to have one person available to audit one process at all.

My question: is it possible to internally audit a process you own given the lack of personnel at a small company?
People. Stop. Lets get back on track with the OP... @chetws
I can help, I think. I too work in a small 60-70 person company and wear several hats every day. I own the audit process and I do 98% of auditing. I do not have an assistant like you do. Sooooo, I trained my co-worker next to me to audit effectively. He typically only audits me and helps satisfy the objectivity requirement.

So my suggestion is choose just 1 person who has no involvement at all in your process. Train them to audit your process. And you're done. Annnd, NO, you cannot audit your process that you own if you are the one tasked with performing the process.

Heck, even I could audit you for that matter.... Over the phone, and send evidence I suppose. Anyone agree or disagree with that? Has anyone done that??

OMG, I opened another can of worms!
 
Last edited:

tony s

Information Seeker
Trusted Information Resource
#20
My question: is it possible to internally audit a process you own given the lack of personnel at a small company?
Yes. It's possible. There's no categorical statement in the standard that prohibits auditing a process you own. Clause 9.2.2 only mentioned "ensure objectivity and impartiality of the audit process". Since the statement is not categorical, there's a NOTE to serve as guidance. ISO 19011 principles of auditing, although stated "Auditors should be independent of the activity being audited...", also provided some form of flexibility when it added "... wherever practicable". Its second sentence reads "auditors should be independent from the function being audited..." but, again, added "... if practicable".

Using the ISO 9000:2015 as a normative reference also provided some flexibility when it mentioned "Independence CAN be demonstrated by the freedom from responsibility for the activity being audited". In ISO 9001:2015, verbal forms like "can" indicates a possibility or a capability (see Introduction).

Another guidance document, ISO/TS 9002:2016, mentioned this statement: "In some cases, specifically in smaller organizations or areas of the organization where specific job knowledge is required, it can be necessary for a person to audit their OWN work".
 
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
C How will I Internally Audit my BPO Center for ISO 9001:2000 Internal Auditing 8
K Requirements for 2nd languages? I can't even audit them internally IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 59
B Why internally audit ISO clauses for ISO 9001:2000? (Small company) General Auditing Discussions 16
C Method of Monitoring our Internally Produced Non-Conforming Products Quality Tools, Improvement and Analysis 7
T Are internally found Medical Device Software "Bugs" Complaints? 21 CFR Part 820 - US FDA Quality System Regulations (QSR) 3
D Sharing ISO Standards internally on company computers ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 5
S Internally powered ME with non-conductive applied parts IEC 60601 - Medical Electrical Equipment Safety Standards Series 2
R Isolation of Internally Powered (3.3 Vdc) ME Equipment IEC 60601 - Medical Electrical Equipment Safety Standards Series 1
R Single Fault Condition for Internally Powered Medical Device IEC 60601 - Medical Electrical Equipment Safety Standards Series 4
S Should Client Controlled Procedures be Controlled Internally by us as well? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 8
R Referencing and Controlling Labels & Stickers used internally throughout Production Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 1
H How do we use AS9101D internally? AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 2
A Internally Powered Medical Device and Dielectric Strength IEC 60601 - Medical Electrical Equipment Safety Standards Series 17
D Means Of Protection of the Video OUT of an Internally powered device IEC 60601 - Medical Electrical Equipment Safety Standards Series 5
M All Internally Generated Documents ? Required to be Controlled or Not All? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 19
J What PPM (Parts Per Million) targets do you use internally? Quality Tools, Improvement and Analysis 9
B Calibration of "Z" class ring gauges internally using a CMM General Measurement Device and Calibration Topics 5
B Can I calibrate Optical Comparators internally? General Measurement Device and Calibration Topics 22
A Gauges on pressure tank - What is the best way to calibrate a psi gauge internally? General Measurement Device and Calibration Topics 6
L Posting portion of standards internally? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 6
E Wall Internal Auditor Training - Done internally Training - Internal, External, Online and Distance Learning 7
Q ISO 9001-2015 Internal audit finding Internal Auditing 12
lanley liao How to understand this words that the planning of internal audit shall take into consideration the results of previous audits? Oil and Gas Industry Standards and Regulations 10
P Audit check for IT company (ISO 9001) ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 7
D Supplier audit Medical Device and FDA Regulations and Standards News 2
M Go Live With New ERP System before Recertification Audit General Auditing Discussions 6
A Add MDSAP to Internal Audit Schedule Medical Device Related Regulations 0
A Define timeline for Major and Miner Audit finding General Auditing Discussions 4
J IATF 16949 Internal Audit question - Auditor's responsibility Internal Auditing 6
A API Monogram audit review process Oil and Gas Industry Standards and Regulations 4
S IATF 16949 Internal Audit Example IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 7
B Remote IATF 16949 audit preparation General Auditing Discussions 10
M AS9100D Registrar pre-audit requirements AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 15
I Do I need to sign off my annual audit calendar? Internal Auditing 2
R AS9100D internal audit checklist or ISO 9001 2015 to AS9100 D AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 2
M Nice and simple invitation email to an audit kickoff meeting Internal Auditing 1
M IATF 16949 - Audit of Remote Location/Support Site and IT IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 4
Q IATF audit - Root Cause Analysis results IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 5
Q Self-assessment audit information Quality Management System (QMS) Manuals 6
Le Chiffre Online training available for ISO/IEC 17021-1: Requirements for bodies providing audit and certification of management systems Training - Internal, External, Online and Distance Learning 3
xfngrs NIOSH Audit for N95 respirators US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) 1
Sidney Vianna IATF 16949 News Risked Based Audit Day Calculation IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 2
T AS9100 audit due to facility move AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 4
M ISO 13485:2016 internal audit checklist Medical Device and FDA Regulations and Standards News 5
A Internal Audit Questions ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 11
B SAP Audit trail Periodic Review EU Medical Device Regulations 1
N What are the software audit and control steps Reliability Analysis - Predictions, Testing and Standards 2
R Gap Audit Aerospsace and Rail QMS Quality Manager and Management Related Issues 0
salaheddine96 Internal audit planning Internal Auditing 2
A MDSAP Audit Questionnaire Medical Device and FDA Regulations and Standards News 7

Similar threads

Top Bottom