CAPA for missed Sales KPI?

Ed Panek

QA RA Small Med Dev Company
Leader
Super Moderator
We missed our sales KPI by

  • War in Ukraine
  • Global pandemic
  • Supply fluctuations
  • Things we know
  • Things we know we don't know
  • Things we don't know we don't know.
A better sales KPI might be based on:

  • Employee training
  • Employee retention
  • Employee morale
  • Sales team Trade Shows
  • Other things we can control and measure
 

Nadaabo

Involved In Discussions
I have 3 separate auditors at 2 different companies I work with ISO9001:2008, ISO9001:2015 and AS9100 tell me the same thing:
process is in CA or CI. If it's not meeting it's target then your non-conforming and should be correcting the issue (10.2) or it's meeting its targets, so you should be going through some continuous improvement effort.

If your notes in the review can show that you've contained and corrected the issue and figured out why (root cause) and what you've put in place to prevent that as well as a way to follow through in the next minutes that the actions taken addressed the issue and you're back meeting targets, then your notes should be sufficient. But it will take someone to monitor this.

It sounds like a pain, but I moved form Quality management back to Production management and I actually did a CA with my team when we didn't meet our OTD. I'm glad we did that because we found out that some of our data in our ERP where these KPIs come from were wrong (dirty data). The CA process is just an organized and structured method to address issues like this. We have 2 separate CA forms in our company. The official one we use for customer issues and then an internal one that process owners, department managers, etc., use to retain the actions taken to address NCs they found in their processes. they get audited and closed by QA, but that's their only involvement.

I hope this helps and makes sense :)
 

Jim Wynne

Leader
Admin
I have 3 separate auditors at 2 different companies I work with ISO9001:2008, ISO9001:2015 and AS9100 tell me the same thing:
process is in CA or CI. If it's not meeting it's target then your non-conforming and should be correcting the issue (10.2) or it's meeting its targets, so you should be going through some continuous improvement effort.

If your notes in the review can show that you've contained and corrected the issue and figured out why (root cause) and what you've put in place to prevent that as well as a way to follow through in the next minutes that the actions taken addressed the issue and you're back meeting targets, then your notes should be sufficient. But it will take someone to monitor this.

It sounds like a pain, but I moved form Quality management back to Production management and I actually did a CA with my team when we didn't meet our OTD. I'm glad we did that because we found out that some of our data in our ERP where these KPIs come from were wrong (dirty data). The CA process is just an organized and structured method to address issues like this. We have 2 separate CA forms in our company. The official one we use for customer issues and then an internal one that process owners, department managers, etc., use to retain the actions taken to address NCs they found in their processes. they get audited and closed by QA, but that's their only involvement.

I hope this helps and makes sense :)
Once again, "annual sales" is not a process, therefore a Key Process Indicator (KPI) is not appropriate. Certainly there will be processes that can contribute to an increase in sales, but as I pointed out earlier, increased sales doesn't necessarily mean increased profit. Application of a corrective action process might be appropriate in solving problems or removing impediments, but that's beside the point insofar as the original question is concerned.
 

Golfman25

Trusted Information Resource
Once again, "annual sales" is not a process, therefore a Key Process Indicator (KPI) is not appropriate. Certainly there will be processes that can contribute to an increase in sales, but as I pointed out earlier, increased sales doesn't necessarily mean increased profit. Application of a corrective action process might be appropriate in solving problems or removing impediments, but that's beside the point insofar as the original question is concerned.
Sales certainly is a process. And sales dollars can be used to measure your success/failure in that department. Depending on your customer base, it may not be the best KPI vs. something like incremental sales, number of customers added, value of projects landed, quote hit rate, etc.
 

Bev D

Heretical Statistician
Leader
Super Moderator
I have 3 separate auditors at 2 different companies I work with ISO9001:2008, ISO9001:2015 and AS9100 tell me the same thing:
process is in CA or CI. If it's not meeting it's target then your non-conforming and should be correcting the issue (10.2) or it's meeting its targets, so you should be going through some continuous improvement effort.
Regardless of Jim's point regarding Sales not being a process, the key point here in general is if all processes require KPIs and if all KPIs must be have goals and all goals must be met or improved upon or else we must issue a CA. per the standard. Which is what you are implying. I've not seen anything in any standard that says we are in a state of nonconformance if we fail to meet a KPI goal. Your auditor's opinions on this are not what matters. It is the standard that matters. can you - or anyone - provide the requirement statement from any standard?

Now I do believe strongly in setting useful goals for important Indicators. This is a critical element of business management. but we must prioritize and we must have the proper processes in lace to achieve the necessary goals. I have written on this extensively in other posts. But I do not beleive that 'missing' a goal is a nonconformance. prove me wrong.
 

Tidge

Trusted Information Resource
Doesn't KPI sometimes refer to "Key Performance Indicator"?

I'm not fluent in 9001, so forgive me if this question is poorly framed.
 

Golfman25

Trusted Information Resource
Regardless of Jim's point regarding Sales not being a process, the key point here in general is if all processes require KPIs and if all KPIs must be have goals and all goals must be met or improved upon or else we must issue a CA. per the standard. Which is what you are implying. I've not seen anything in any standard that says we are in a state of nonconformance if we fail to meet a KPI goal. Your auditor's opinions on this are not what matters. It is the standard that matters. can you - or anyone - provide the requirement statement from any standard?

Now I do believe strongly in setting useful goals for important Indicators. This is a critical element of business management. but we must prioritize and we must have the proper processes in lace to achieve the necessary goals. I have written on this extensively in other posts. But I do not beleive that 'missing' a goal is a nonconformance. prove me wrong.
If it's my CB, they would say something like this:

Citing 4.4.1 (c), which talks about monitoring and measuring process, but actually meaning 4.4.1 (g) -- "evaluate these process and implement any changes needed to ensure that these processes achieve their intended results." And then they would say something to the effect that "you should have done a corrective action . . . " :)
 

Big Jim

Admin
If it's my CB, they would say something like this:

Citing 4.4.1 (c), which talks about monitoring and measuring process, but actually meaning 4.4.1 (g) -- "evaluate these process and implement any changes needed to ensure that these processes achieve their intended results." And then they would say something to the effect that "you should have done a corrective action . . . " :)

First of all, there is nothing to keep you from having more than one place to record nonconformances and corrective actions. Second of all, according to 10.2 not all nonconformances need to have corrective actions. (see 10.2.1 b) "evaluate the need for action to eliminate the cause(s) of the nonconformity . . . " and 10.2.2 b) "The organization shall retain documented information as evidence of . . . the results of any corrective action . . . "

Who gets to evaluate the need for a corrective action? The organization does, NOT the auditor.
 
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