CAPA for missed Sales KPI?

Big Jim

Admin
Can you describe annual sales as a process?

Sales can be a process, and often is. Annual sales, if properly stated so it is measurable, could be a quality objective and be used as a key performance indicator is so chosen.

Personally, I would not, and would recommend that it not be chosen. Simply because ISO 9001 does not deal with finances, most nearly all ISO 9001 auditors are not qualified to evaluate finances, and there is no good reason to open that door to them. Use it as a financial objective if you choose (and it is usually a very good one), but don't mention it when dealing with your quality management system.
 

John C. Abnet

Teacher, sensei, kennari
Leader
Super Moderator
Let's not also forget. The scope of ISO 9001 is... (the subject forum)...
"This International Standard specifies requirements for a quality management system when an
organization:
a) needs to demonstrate its ability to consistently provide products and services that meet customer
and applicable statutory and regulatory requirements, and
b) aims to enhance customer satisfaction through the effective application of the system, including
processes for improvement of the system and the...


In other words, this ISO standard concerns itself with the QUALITY of what we provide and CONTINUAL IMPROVEMENT of our management system.

I would counsel as to considering if (back to the OP) 'Sales' should even be an included/identified process. Remember, the organization is left to determine 'the processes needed...."

Considering the aforementioned scope of ISO9001..., would it be wise to include...
* Marketing?
* Finance?
* Nursing (larger organizations often have on site nursing/first aid departments/processes)
* etc..

If no, then why include sales? (unless the sales process (NOT sales revenue goals), has control over customer specifications, or other aspects that can affect output quality).

If the sales process DOES have an impact (???) on product quality as described above, then including the sales process does not mean we need to (or should) include things well outside the scope of ISO 9001 such as sales revenue targets. The customer is not impacted by that and that has no place within the scope of QUALITY and IMPROVEMENT of a QMS.


Hope this helps.
Be well.
 

Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Leader
Admin
If the sales process DOES have an impact (???) on product quality as described above, then including the sales process does not mean we need to (or should) include things well outside the scope of ISO 9001 such as sales revenue targets. The customer is not impacted by that and that has no place within the scope of QUALITY and IMPROVEMENT of a QMS.
Sales is one of the primary contributors to customer dissatisfaction and lack of order fulfillment. That's clearly the reason for ISO 9001 to have extensive requirements for PRODUCT AND ORDER reviews, PRIOR to agreeing to acceptance of an order. Sales goals/KPI's, while critical for any business commercial success can be counterproductive from a customer satisfaction/experience perspective and why so many OTD goals are missed? Many times because a sales person (thinking about the bonus) deliberately overpromised a fast turnaround, knowing full well the order could not be fulfilled by the "promised delivery date".

In the context of ISO 9001/AS9100, a real quality objective, also known as a QPI (not KPI) for sales would measure how well the sales process filters impossible to deliver requirements.
 

Golfman25

Trusted Information Resource
First of all, there is nothing to keep you from having more than one place to record nonconformances and corrective actions. Second of all, according to 10.2 not all nonconformances need to have corrective actions. (see 10.2.1 b) "evaluate the need for action to eliminate the cause(s) of the nonconformity . . . " and 10.2.2 b) "The organization shall retain documented information as evidence of . . . the results of any corrective action . . . "

Who gets to evaluate the need for a corrective action? The organization does, NOT the auditor.
Ha, ha, ha. That's funny. I think my former auditors would disagree. :) Just my actual experiences dealing with this crud.

But I agree with you.
 

John C. Abnet

Teacher, sensei, kennari
Leader
Super Moderator
Sales is one of the primary contributors to customer dissatisfaction and lack of order fulfillment. That's clearly the reason for ISO 9001 to have extensive requirements for PRODUCT AND ORDER reviews, PRIOR to agreeing to acceptance of an order. Sales goals/KPI's, while critical for any business commercial success can be counterproductive from a customer satisfaction/experience perspective and why so many OTD goals are missed? Many times because a sales person (thinking about the bonus) deliberately overpromised a fast turnaround, knowing full well the order could not be fulfilled by the "promised delivery date".

In the context of ISO 9001/AS9100, a real quality objective, also known as a QPI (not KPI) for sales would measure how well the sales process filters impossible to deliver requirements.
I don't disagree in principle @Sidney Vianna , but in most of my experiences "orders" are often managed by a 'Production Control" / "customer service" process. What/where I describe is where I have witnessed the most customer facing problems.

Again, "sales" depends on individual organizations and what the purpose/scope of 'sales' is in regard to whether that process can have an input on the delivered outputs.

Seems we may be saying the 'same' thing from different (and organization dependent) perspectives.

Be well.
 

Big Jim

Admin
I don't disagree in principle @Sidney Vianna , but in most of my experiences "orders" are often managed by a 'Production Control" / "customer service" process. What/where I describe is where I have witnessed the most customer facing problems.

Again, "sales" depends on individual organizations and what the purpose/scope of 'sales' is in regard to whether that process can have an input on the delivered outputs.

Seems we may be saying the 'same' thing from different (and organization dependent) perspectives.

Be well.

Indeed, but it appears that Sidney has the broader perspective. Most of the companies I call on have a process that is or could be call "Sales".
 

Jim Wynne

Leader
Admin
Indeed, but it appears that Sidney has the broader perspective. Most of the companies I call on have a process that is or could be call "Sales".
Note that I didn't say that "sales" is not a process. I said that "annual sales" is not a process. Obviously (I thought), an effort to increase annual sales must be supported by underlying processes, and those processes can certainly have KPIs, and those KPIs must be established for each process. Also, as I said earlier, if an increase in annual sales is to be an objective, there must be an actual plan to achieve it.
 

Big Jim

Admin
Note that I didn't say that "sales" is not a process. I said that "annual sales" is not a process. Obviously (I thought), an effort to increase annual sales must be supported by underlying processes, and those processes can certainly have KPIs, and those KPIs must be established for each process. Also, as I said earlier, if an increase in annual sales is to be an objective, there must be an actual plan to achieve it.

We are in agreement. I said that annual sales could be an indicator for a process called sales but I didn't think it was a good idea.
 
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