CAR (Corrective Action Report) with questionable Root Cause

E

embedded

Involved In Discussions
#1
#1
Our CM built a lot of products incorrectly, that is what was built didn't match the Bill Of Materials (BOM) provided. This was the second time in a relatively short time period so we requested a CAR from them. They indicated the root cause was, we provided a sample(our CM has requested we always send a sample) that didn't match the BOM, and the operator built the product to match the sample. The corrective action was to retrain the operator to always build to the BOM. We checked our records and they show the sample provided did match the BOM. Although, to be fair there are situations where we send a sample but it doesn't match the BOM as it's the first time we're building a product or we just don't have an exact sample on hand...

I plan to have a visit with our CM to discuss, but I'm a bit unsure the best tact to take build a stronger relationship without making them defensive. We've been trying to do a better job at capturing issues, and providing feedback. Historically we only captured major issues(a couple a year) and rarely provided feedback to our CM when we had issues, we'd just fix the issues.

Unfortunately it seems like this is making our CM defensive. They are key to our business and I want to create an open line of discussion where we're helping one another improve and not one of poking each other in the eye, which I think they perceive this to be. Suggestions, on how to discuss the questionable root cause they provided?
 
GAGEpack - Gage & Calibration Management
Elsmar Forum Sponsor
Ronen E

Ronen E

Problem Solver
Staff member
Moderator
#5
#5
I think that regardless of what they say you should check yourself and make sure that your affairs are fully sorted.
I think that you should raise a CAPA in your own system, to sort out the matter of issuing samples that are not aligned with the BOM being issued. I think that this is a bad practice.
I suggest meeting with your CM and discussing the subject, highlighting that sometimes an accurate sample is impossible to provide and that maybe in those situations it's better to go with no sample. Alternatively discuss ways (maybe fail safe) to highlight the differences between the sample and BOM and ensure that the BOM takes precedence, other than operator vigilance / compliance / awareness etc.
Training or re-training is not a robust measure of eliminating root causes, and should be applied only as a reinforcement / as a last resort.
 
Sidney Vianna

Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Staff member
Admin
#6
#6
embedded said:
Suggestions, on how to discuss the questionable root cause they provided?
Click to expand...
The best way to stop defensiveness on their side is by stating upfront, as clearly and objectively as you can that the business relationship is not at risk due to the past escapes. Make it abundantly clear that you want to work with them, in a collaborative way and not the typical customer-supplier adversarial relationship.

But do insist on better root cause analysis.
 
Mikey324

Mikey324

Quite Involved in Discussions
#7
#7
Ronen E said:
Training or re-training is not a robust measure of eliminating root causes, and should be applied only as a reinforcement / as a last resort.
Click to expand...
I agree, retraining is hardly ever an effective countermeasure, because the need for retraining is rarely the true root cause. If they list root cause as "Sample didn't match BOM", then this is a symptom of the failure, not the root cause. Even using the 5 why method, there are probably a few more why's to go through in my opinion.
 
E

Eredhel

Quality Manager
#8
#8
What are the requirements you have given them for making things? Is it something that can have a blueprint, CAD model, something else?
 
G

Golfman25

Trusted Information Resource
#9
#9
It sounds like it's as much on you as it is on them. It's the age old problem -- make the part to the sample provided or the print. The true corrective action is to ensure any questions are answered before you start production.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
E CAR (Corrective Action Request) Due Dates ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 17
J When to Initiate a CAR (Corrective Action Request) ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 6
5 Expediting Internal Corrective Action Requests (CAR) Closures Nonconformance and Corrective Action 3
Mikishots How to handle CAR (Corrective Action Request) Scope vs. Timely Response Nonconformance and Corrective Action 9
M Audit Interview as Evidence to issue a CAR (Corrective Action Request) General Auditing Discussions 13
H Acceptable Time to provide proof of CAR (Corrective Action Report) Nonconformance and Corrective Action 4
N Combining Multiple CARs (Corrective Action Request) into One CAR? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 16
M Operator Mistakes (Errors) and responding to CAR (Corrective Action Requests) Nonconformance and Corrective Action 20
B Issue CAR (Corrective Action Request) When KPI Fails to meet Goal Quality Manager and Management Related Issues 8
B CAR (Corrective Action Request) from Management Review Meeting ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 3
T CAR (Corrective Action Request) for On Time Delivery Nonconformance and Corrective Action 9
C AS9100 Rev C Clause 8.5.2 - CAR (Corrective Action Request) Format AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 14
S Supplier Corrective Action Request (SCAR) vs. Corrective Action Request (CAR) Food Safety - ISO 22000, HACCP (21 CFR 120) 15
D NC (Nonconformance) on an Auditors CAR (Corrective Action Request)? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 8
S Corrective Action Audit Form to close a CAR Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 6
M Corrective Action Report (CAR) for CB (Certification Body) required? Registrars and Notified Bodies 8
S CAR to Assessor - Is it allowed to issue a corrective action to an assessor? General Auditing Discussions 28
F Can we reply to a CAR (Corrective Action Request) without Root Cause? Problem Solving, Root Cause Fault and Failure Analysis 24
V CAR (Corrective Action Request) vs. PAR (Preventive Action Request) ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 12
I How do you classify/name your CAR (Corrective Action) types? Nonconformance and Corrective Action 6
P Question in auditing regarding CAR (Corrective Action) Logs Internal Auditing 7
Crusader Registrar CAR (Corrective Action Request) Trend Analysis Benchmarking 6
C CAR (corrective action request) report form for automotive application Nonconformance and Corrective Action 5
5 CAR (Corrective Action Report) for low-buck import Nonconformance and Corrective Action 7
D What is the scope of a CAR (Corrective Action Request)? Nonconformance and Corrective Action 15
M Preventive Action in Corrective Action Report (CAR) Nonconformance and Corrective Action 14
J How to write a CAR (Corrective Action Report) for a Customer Nonconformance and Corrective Action 24
M Issue CAR (corrective action request) TO our Customer? Nonconformance and Corrective Action 20
A CAR (Corrective Action Request) form sans Cause analysis? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 8
T To CAR or not to CAR (Corrective Action Request) - Sales changing prices ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 17
R Are Supplier CAR's (Corrective Action Requests) a Requirement Supplier Quality Assurance and other Supplier Issues 12
A How to Write CAR (Corrective Action Request) based on scenario Nonconformance and Corrective Action 3
M Supplier completed CAR (Corrective Action Request) is unacceptable Nonconformance and Corrective Action 16
J Log in EVERY SINGLE defect caught and demand Corrective Action for each CAR? Preventive Action and Continuous Improvement 11
B CAR/PAR (Corrective Action / Preventive Action) process flow - Seeking example Nonconformance and Corrective Action 7
C Definition CAR - Corrective Action Request - What is the Definition of Definitions, Acronyms, Abbreviations and Interpretations Listed Alphabetically 2
R Car (Corrective Action Request) Responsibility - Manufacturer Per Avl Or Supplier Supplier Quality Assurance and other Supplier Issues 3
D No response to CAR's - Supplier refuses to answer a corrective action Supplier Quality Assurance and other Supplier Issues 12
I Hardcopy or electronic CAR (Corrective Action Request) form (& others)? Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 18
A Customer's Web Based CAR (Corrective Action Request) Systems ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 13
S Corrective Action Request (CAR) to Customer - Has anyone done this? Nonconformance and Corrective Action 10
D Operator Error - Not an Acceptable CAR (Corrective Action Request) Response Nonconformance and Corrective Action 26
M Corrective Action Report (CAR) & Non-conformance Report (IQA) - Computer vs. Paper Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 2
G Corrective Action Request (CAR) Form Examples and Discussion Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 257
B CAR (Corrective Action Request) Format Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 1
B CAR/PAR (Corrective Action / Preventive Action) Systems - How to Centralize? Nonconformance and Corrective Action 17
M Risk and Corrective actions - Currently no FMEA's - Car systems Risk Management Principles and Generic Guidelines 8
A Supplier Corrective Actions - EFFECTIVE corrective actions on CAR's Supplier Quality Assurance and other Supplier Issues 7
Melissa CAR is not good enough! Operator Error! ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 48
G CAR & 5Whys Problem Solving, Root Cause Fault and Failure Analysis 21

Similar threads

Top Bottom