CAR (Corrective Action Request) vs. PAR (Preventive Action Request)

[Vic de Beer]

This may be a question previously raised... I could not find any threads though...
What is the general feeling about the following:
A shortcoming, which would under normal circumstances (a 3rd party audit) be considered a Request for Corrective Action, is raised as a Request for Preventive Action, following an Internal (1st party audit).
As an example:
A Project quality Plan is produced and signed by the Project Manager and Quality Representative, but never issued and is now being audited (Internal audit).:truce:

 

[Jim Wynne]

Re: CAR versus PAR

This may be a question previously raised... I could not find any threads though...
What is the general feeling about the following:
A shortcoming, which would under normal circumstances (a 3rd party audit) be considered a Request for Corrective Action, is raised as a Request for Preventive Action, following an Internal (1st party audit).
As an example:
A Project quality Plan is produced and signed by the Project Manager and Quality Representative, but never issued and is now being audited (Internal audit).:truce:

What does "never issued" mean?

 

[CarolX]

Re: CAR versus PAR

I would suggest you start by reading thru this thread

http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=687

 

[Vic de Beer]

Re: CAR versus PAR

Never issued means:
the project was started without the Project quality Plan put in place..... now the diferent departments are under an internal audit, for compliance to the project QP.

 

[Jim Wynne]

Re: CAR versus PAR

Never issued means:
the project was started without the Project quality Plan put in place..... now the diferent departments are under an internal audit, for compliance to the project QP.

I still don't understand. Is there a documented requirement for a quality plan to be "in place" prior to something else happening? If so, there's your NC, I would think. You can't very well audit a process against requirements that (for practical purposes, if I understand you correctly) don't exist.

 

[Vic de Beer]

Re: CAR versus PAR

That is the point.
The non implementationm of the Quality Plsan should be a Corrective Action...however, a PAR now is being initiated, with the action being: to put in place a Project Quality Plan......
The non implementation of the QP was found during an internal audit.

 

[Jen Kirley]

Re: CAR versus PAR

That is the point.
The non implementationm of the Quality Plsan should be a Corrective Action...however, a PAR now is being initiated, with the action being: to put in place a Project Quality Plan......
The non implementation of the QP was found during an internal audit.

If an internal audit finds nonimplementation of a QP, that should generate a CAR. If other departments want to take notice and issue themselves PARs based on a CAR issued to someone else, that's wonderful but I do not see the PAR as an auditor's role. The auditor's equivalent would be the Observation, in my view.

 

[Jim Wynne]

Re: CAR versus PAR

That is the point.
The non implementationm of the Quality Plsan should be a Corrective Action...however, a PAR now is being initiated, with the action being: to put in place a Project Quality Plan......
The non implementation of the QP was found during an internal audit.

You didn't answer my question regarding the existence (or lack thereof) of a documented requirement for a quality plan to be "in place" prior to something else (production, presumably) happening.

 

[Vic de Beer]

There is no specific requirement for this document in the QMS, however, in the introduction of the "QP" it states that: "this document is the official approved document, which details the strategic decisions taken relating to the project"
and in addition: "this QP serves as a communication tool to ensure that the key decisions are documented and understood by all personnel"

 

[Jim Wynne]

There is no specific requirement for this document in the QMS, however, in the introduction of the "QP" it states that: "this document is the official approved document, which details the strategic decisions taken relating to the project"
and in addition: "this QP serves as a communication tool to ensure that the key decisions are documented and understood by all personnel"

A document can't refer to itself for its authority. If there's no requirement for a QP to exist, there isn't a nonconformity. Nonetheless, since this was an internal audit, and a problem was identified, you should indeed do something, but creating a PA effort isn't it. You need to establish the bona fides of quality plans (what they are, why they exist, when they're required, etc.).