Certificate for In-House Calibration

Stijloor

Staff member
Super Moderator
#11
I am intrigued by this SAMM. Can you give me a little more information?

Hershal is one of the foremost experts (IMHO) on calibration. Let me encourage you to go to him name, and search through his last 100 or so posts. It will really be beneficial to you.

Most everyone else here is quite good too (except me, I'm just their agent:tg:). You have an appropriate standard, a decent procedure, the right numbers... You have a calibration. I hope you know what I mean. I just want to suggest a middle ground, reasonable approach. Calibration (and CoC) is not something everyone can do, and not something too difficult for anybody. Make sense.

As far as ISO 9001 is concern, the system is yours to decide. Basically, if it is an instrument utilized for impact, quality decision, measurement, etc., it will need a verification/ calibration, etc. to determine fitness for use. You will need to establish a program to ensure the equipment is adequately calibrated, and fit for use.

Please, I don't mean to come across too strong, so forgive me if it does. But... if you're company cannot afford a good calibration program, it needs to re-evaluate being in business (or at least going into an ISO initiative). If you are MFG. a product and you have instruments for quality assessment, IMO it's pretty important that they be accurate.

How many instruments are we talking about, and of what kind? I bet if you added it all up, you would save money sending it out for calibration. So I don't bore you do death, search on the Cove for internal calibration, and you'll find some detailed analysis by several people here.

Ok, enough of my rambling. I hope there's something here to help you.
Hello BradM,

I too, was intrigued by SAMM: Malaysian Department of Standards laboratory accreditation program, Skim Akreditasi Makmal Malaysia [SAMM].

Here are some links referring to SAMM:

http://www.standardsmalaysia.gov.my/SAMM_Leaflet 1 & 2 - Fields & Charges.pdf

http://www.agilent.com/metrology/samm_schedule.shtml

http://www.pyrometro.com.my/calibration.html

Hope this helps.

Stijloor.
 
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U

Umang Vidyarthi

#12
Hi BradM & Madannc, thanks for your suggestions for carrying out in-house calibration and COC. Meanwhile, I have asked a ISO consultant for opinion on the In-house calibration and COC. She came back to me that we can have in-house calibration, but we cannot produce COC as we are not SAMM certified. In-house calibration merely means those MMDs are VERIFIED

FYI, our company is implementing ISO 9001:2000 QMS. My concern is --> is it all MMDs in the factory should be calibrated? Our company is small with around 10 ppl, we can't afford to send out all MMDs for calibration and have another spare set while MMDs sent out for calibration; we do in-house calibration. On the other hand, we sent only all MMDs used by QC Technician for external calibration.

Is this approach acceptable for ISO 9001:2000 QMS?
Your ISO consultant is absolutely right that you can not produce COC.
If you go back to the basics,the purpose of in-house calibration is to decrease the periodicity between two calibrations and increase the number of
calibrations during life-span of the tool,at lesser cost.This you have achieved.
ISO requirements are also mandatory.You will have to strike a balance between in-house calibration to be punctuated with external calibration through a certified agency.Thus you may achieve low cost while fulfilling ISO requirements as well.
In other words you may have your cake and eat it too!!;)
 
U

Umang Vidyarthi

#14
I just want to understand your statement. Are you saying this due to the SAMM requirement, or is there another thought regarding why you say a COC cannot be produced?
This is not the requirement of SAMM alone.There are plenty more on the globe
Point is ,any one accreditated by a recognised institution is authorised to issue a COC,no T-D-H is supposed to issue this document,'cause this will defeat the very purpose of forming the standards and/or proceedures.Now,
this is my understanding of the system,correct me if I'm wrong in my assumption. :agree: :cfingers:

Umang
 

BradM

Staff member
Admin
#15
Umang, I enjoy your posts and your input. I'm glad you're contributing.

I think I have mutual respect for your position, and you make a good point.

I would not say that a Certificate of Conformance or calibration is sole property of the Accredited labs. I think that internal calibration labs can (and legitimately do) issue these documents without accreditation. Internal organization A may need to use instrument 1, and requires the certificate with instrument 1 from internal organization 2 ( performing the test). Make sense? Also, I think performing internal calibrations should be done with excellence, and have good documentation for presentation.

However (big caveat, here) the documents need to be clear as to what is being reported, and what it is being reported against. It should be distinct what is done, or maybe what is not done. The information on the form may list an internal procedure, asset/ID number of instrument, uncertainty, as found/as left values, etc.


Does that seem plausible to you?
 
U

Umang Vidyarthi

#16
Umang, I enjoy your posts and your input. I'm glad you're contributing.

I think I have mutual respect for your position, and you make a good point.

I would not say that a Certificate of Conformance or calibration is sole property of the Accredited labs. I think that internal calibration labs can (and legitimately do) issue these documents without accreditation. Internal organization A may need to use instrument 1, and requires the certificate with instrument 1 from internal organization 2 ( performing the test). Make sense? Also, I think performing internal calibrations should be done with excellence, and have good documentation for presentation.

However (big caveat, here) the documents need to be clear as to what is being reported, and what it is being reported against. It should be distinct what is done, or maybe what is not done. The information on the form may list an internal procedure, asset/ID number of instrument, uncertainty, as found/as left values, etc.


Does that seem plausible to you?
Brad,
Thanks for your appreciation.It's heartening to know that my contribution(however little) is found useful.
I do agree that Issuance of certificate should not be the sole property of Accreditated labs,but 1.what about the laid down proceedure by ISO? 2.And more importantly you need a governer or observer to certify that your internal
calibration is in line with the laid down proceedures.This is where the accreditated labs come into play.If everyone is efficient enough to control the standards,then there is no need for any standard et all.Your own internal calibration may be the 'Best' in the world,yet it needs to be certified by a neuteral body,and that's where & why accreditation is needed.

The 'big Caveat' you have stated is literally a big caveat.Who will supervise that the documents reporting for /against are correct?The information given therein is right or wrong?and so on.This is the sole reason for a neuteral body's involvement.

As for the plausibilty,yesss.A group of companies dealing within their domain,
can resort to a volley ball game,and yet maintain the quality better than those working overtime on International Standards.
But in such a case,how will you determine as to who is better or worse?

So I opine,that set standards(even mediocre) are better than 'Superb' non standards.
Looking forwards for your respectable views.

Umang:bigwave:
 
E

Esthyl - 2010

#17
I am intrigued by this SAMM. Can you give me a little more information?
BradM, sorry for confusing you. I didn't realize that SAMM is only used in M'sia, I thought it's as universal as the word 'ISO'. Stijloor, thanks for the search.

All these posts are helpful to me, that's true that many experts here...
 

Stijloor

Staff member
Super Moderator
#18
BradM, sorry for confusing you. I didn't realize that SAMM is only used in M'sia, I thought it's as universal as the word 'ISO'. Stijloor, thanks for the search.

All these posts are helpful to me, that's true that many experts here...
Hello Esthyl,

I want to thank you for asking and BradM for following up. Glad to do the "research", really no big deal. I learned a few things while doing this. Isn't this great? A win for all.

Stijloor.
 

BradM

Staff member
Admin
#19
I do agree that Issuance of certificate should not be the sole property of Accreditated labs,but 1.what about the laid down proceedure by ISO? 2.And more importantly you need a governer or observer to certify that your internal
calibration is in line with the laid down proceedures.This is where the accreditated labs come into play.If everyone is efficient enough to control the standards,then there is no need for any standard et all.Your own internal calibration may be the 'Best' in the world,yet it needs to be certified by a neuteral body,and that's where & why accreditation is needed.
Again, you make good points. I see you hold high passion for good metrology practices. My pat answer has become one highly similar to Hershal's, and many others. In general, find a qualified lab and have them perform the calibration.

However, the real world is just not simple. As far as ISO, they are international standards that require you do develop and maintain a program. Every company is required to develop an effective calibration program. That may involve internal calibration/external calibration, one or the other. It is perfectly acceptable to establish an internal calibration program in-house. ISO does not have a police squad. The organization must have a competent internal auditing program to determine that the established procedures are being followed and serving management's desires. Competent external auditors are usually pretty good at observing processes, and determining if the calibration program is effective and in compliance with organizational procedures.

Saying all this, I do fully believe in competent/ qualified labs and their service. I just want to be careful that we all don't fall into this "ISO mandates this or that" when in reality, it doesn't.

More times than not, unless you have greater than a sizeable number of instruments, it's worth it to send them to a competent lab. After adding everything up, it's not costing you any more than maintaining a competent internal lab.

BradM, sorry for confusing you. I didn't realize that SAMM is only used in M'sia, I thought it's as universal as the word 'ISO'. Stijloor, thanks for the search.

All these posts are helpful to me, that's true that many experts here...
Esthyl, I learn something everyday too. I did not know what SAMM is, and I had to learn.

To you and Umang, while basic components of good quality and metrology are universal, there are differences in industries, compliance, requirements, culture, etc. that may require subtle adjustments to practice. I really don't think Umang or I are right or wrong, we just have a different realm of experience and practice.
 

harry

Super Moderator
#20
Just to add on to Brad's post.

1. SAMM is the accreditation body in Malaysia. ISO 9001 only requires that calibrations be traceable to a National or international standard - something which any non accreditated labs or well equipped in house labs should be able to carry out (refer to post #8 by Hershal)

2. Non accreditated labs also issue calibration certificates. However, they cannot use the accreditation body's logo (SAMM) in their certificate. Therefore the issue that only accreditated labs can issue certificates is not not right. At least in Malaysia, SAMM has power to police their accreditated members but not the non-accreditated ones. Use of accreditated labs is of-course preferred but not a necessity.

3. In-house labs normally record their calibration results in some sort of forms but the contents are similar to certificates issued by external labs but as pointed out by Hershal, you need to be able to calibrated (manipulate the instrument and adjustment) plus determine uncertainties and have tracebilities to qualify as 'calibration' instead of verification. If you read through the calibration thread, you will find that even ISO 17025 certified labs sometimes fumble with the subject of determining uncertainties. In addition, you may need to prove the competency of your calibration technicians.

4. In the light of the above, I think it's cheaper for the original poster (Esthyl) to send their MDDs' for outside calibration. If you insist on in-house, you need to purchase the calibration blocks (with certificate traceable to relevant standards), have a lab with controls on temperature and humidity, etc and employ qualified technicians.

5. Esthyl had not come back to let us know what industry she's in. Normally, not all MDDs' need to be send out for calibration. Relevant advice will be given when she responds.
 
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