Clause 0.4 of ISO 9001 and EHS - Where should I stop the inclusion of EHS in my QMS

L.Soad

Involved In Discussions
#1
Good afternoon everyone,

I remember seeing some post about clause 0.4 a few days ago, but can’t find it, so I’m creating a new discussion. Clause 0.4 states that:
ISO 9001 2015 said:
This International Standard does not include requirements specific to other management systems, such as those for environmental management, occupational health and safety management, or financial management.
The question is pretty large: Where should I stop concerning the inclusion of EHS in my QMS ? I already identified it as one of my companies’ process (should I put it completely out of the scope of the QMS?). As we go on client sites to do our job, and because it is a pretty dangerous job, I think it’s at least mildly important to put EHS into our QMS. What kind of client would not be bothered if a subcontractor got seriously injured (or died) in their factory?

thanks for your feedback.

Soad
 
Elsmar Forum Sponsor

Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Staff member
Admin
#2
Where should I stop concerning the inclusion of EHS in my QMS ?
The issues surrounding employee health and safety are part of the occupational health and safety management system. Why would EHS be part of a QMS? Is your financial system part of the QMS?

The organization has to balance and manage multiple disciplines in order to achieve sustainable growth. The EHS is part and subset of the business processes. That's why the ISO HLS has 5.1.1c) in all of it's management system standards. It is wise to integrate all relevant disciplines into a coherent, well aligned business system, but quality is the part of the business that deals with product conformity and customer satisfaction. Sometimes quality and EHS clash, sometimes they go hand in hand; proper balancing is required.

In the example that you offered, a technician performing work at your customer's site will be exposed to a number of occupational hazards for sure, and that needs to be managed, without a question. Likewise, his/her work might impact customer's satisfaction and the environment. So, the conclusion is: when you have an employee performing work at the customer premises, multiple issues have to be properly managed. Multiple disciplines are at play. Why do all of them should be part of the QMS? They aren't. My recommendation? Manage the activity and processes for all of the exposures, in a coherent manner, but don't try to make EHS a "part" of the QMS.
 

L.Soad

Involved In Discussions
#3
I guess i've been too zealous in my process map conception, that must be a common error for rookies. Yes, i've also got a financial part in my QMS. Its really not a big thing, just a few really short documents. It covers client billing, supplier payment, etc...

Guess i have to delete them too. It will save me some time and efforts, but somehow i feel i'll be missing something in my QMS.

Thanks Sidney
 

L.Soad

Involved In Discussions
#4
Hi!

Little update: I’m going to cut EHS management, even though my boss wanted to have an integrated management system with EHS in it (maybe in the future when I’ll be far away !), and «financial system» of my QMS.

Do I just need to state in the scope of the QMS that these activities are not concerned (it would be documented, as 4.3 states)? Or it’s not even needed? Right now, I have a quality manual, I now it’s not required any more but I kind like it because it centralize a lot of information in one place, and it would just be like 2 lines added.

Thanks
 

Tagin

Trusted Information Resource
#5
Especially since it is a prominent aspect of the operation of your company ("it is a pretty dangerous job"), I don't see any reason to exclude it from your QMS. If your EHS is documented and managed separately, then your QMS really just needs to refer to that other system, the authorities/responsibilities, etc. and to make sure the EHS system has appropriate document control, training records, and such.

Likewise, I agree that financial is reasonable to include, at least to the extent of customer touchpoints, communications, & satisfaction, and likely include supplier financial payments/agreements processes, even if only high-level. Control of financial risk (e.g., who gets NET terms?, how are credit limits set/managed?, etc.) seem entirely reasonable to include.

What I think 0.4 refers to is that 9001 is not about compliance to requirements for other EHS, financial, etc. management systems. That is, it is a disclaimer that 9001 does not per se include EHS or financial requirements. To me, that disclaimer does not automatically translate to a license to exclude EHS or financial processes from the QMS. As such, a 9001 audit would not be auditing your compliance to an EHS standard; but rather, whether your EHS processes are compliant w/9001 requirements, just like any other process in your company.
 

Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Staff member
Admin
#6
Do I just need to state in the scope of the QMS that these activities are not concerned (it would be documented, as 4.3 states)? Or it’s not even needed?
Having an integrated management system where all relevant disciplines and interested parties are being taken into account is the ultimate goal. The scope of the management system(s) should always be properly defined, and, in the case of an external audit, you must ALWAYS remind the auditor that their audits also have defined scopes so they must not audit out of their bounds.
 

L.Soad

Involved In Discussions
#7
Especially since it is a prominent aspect of the operation of your company ("it is a pretty dangerous job"), I don't see any reason to exclude it from your QMS. If your EHS is documented and managed separately, then your QMS really just needs to refer to that other system, the authorities/responsibilities, etc. and to make sure the EHS system has appropriate document control, training records, and such.
Our situation in H&S is kinda weird, due to the origins of the company and the fact it grew too quickly. We have 2 «half time» EHS coordinators, almost never at their desks because they also are operators... I think for now I’m going to refer to EHS management as managed outside of the QMS, it could be integrated later.

Control of financial risk (e.g., who gets NET terms?, how are credit limits set/managed?, etc.) seem entirely reasonable to include.
Everything is so... undocumented. You want to know the answers you asked, you have to ask our financial director (which is also our HR...), and she'll say that it depends (and it can change quickly), and that she knows, so it’s ok... For the moment, the procedures I have on the finance subject are just a written form of «it depends», because I can’t get a better answer, and compiling info for our 600+ customers would likely be a 2 weeks job.

The scope of the management system(s) should always be properly defined, and, in the case of an external audit, you must ALWAYS remind the auditor that their audits also have defined scopes so they must not audit out of their bounds.
Indeed, I’ll make sure to keep an eye on that when the time of external audits come. I’ll also review the scope of the QMS and make sure there is no ambiguity.

Thank you for your answers
 

Tagin

Trusted Information Resource
#8
Everything is so... undocumented. You want to know the answers you asked, you have to ask our financial director (which is also our HR...), and she'll say that it depends (and it can change quickly), and that she knows, so it’s ok... For the moment, the procedures I have on the finance subject are just a written form of «it depends», because I can’t get a better answer, and compiling info for our 600+ customers would likely be a 2 weeks job.
Well, it could be something like:

"The Financial Director has authority and responsibility, using their experience and expertise, to:
  • determine and monitor credit terms and limits of customers
  • direct accounting personnel in their day-to-day task assignments
  • escalate financial issues to owners/top mgmt
  • etc., etc."
The idea being that there is control and oversight, albeit in a "non-algorithmic" manner, which alleviates your need to try to document non-existent step-by-step procedures. :)
 

L.Soad

Involved In Discussions
#9
I'll do that Tagin, and do the same for EHS, for now.
I'll try to integrate EHS into the IMS after first certification (if i'll stay). I definitly have more problems to solve before (example: 8.3...)
 
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
I Master Document Access - ISO 9001:2015 clause 7.5.3 Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 5
Q Why new clause (7.1.6) in ISO 9001:2015? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 11
S ISO 9001 Clause 8.3 Design for an education services provider ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 8
S ISO 9001 Clause 8.3 - Design & Development for training course center ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 7
C Determining if Maintenance Contractor is an External Service subject to ISO 9001 Clause 8.4 ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 43
M IATF 16949:2016 clause 8.4.2.3 - We don't have ISO 9001:2015 certificate IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 26
S ISO 9001:2015 Clause 9.3.2 - MR (Management Review) - Adequacy of resources ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 8
S ISO 9001:2015 Clause 8.7 Control of Nonconforming Outputs ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 19
Q ISO 9001 Clause 9.1 - Monitoring measurement analysis and evaluation ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 6
D ISO 9001:2015 Clause 8.4.3 "Information for External Providers" buying from online retailers. ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 10
A Records required for ISO 9001 clause 7.1.5.1 - Fitness for purpose of the monitoring and measurement resources ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 10
E ISO 9001:2015 Clause 10.2.2 - Evidence of all nonconformities and actions ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 9
Q ISO 9001:2015 Clause 8.3 - Is it possible to exclude one product but include it in other? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 10
Q Only manufacturing, non applicable - ISO 9001 Clause 8.3 ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 16
A What ISO 9001:2015 clause could be used to write nonconformance for not updating licensed driver list? General Auditing Discussions 8
MichaelDRoach ISO 9001:2015 Clause 9.3.2c)3) - What process or processes is this focused on? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 5
R CIP (Corrective Action) requirements - ISO 9001 clause 10.2 ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 10
Hieupm Clause 8.5.5 and Clause 8.6: which one should be coming first? (ISO 9001:2015) ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 3
GStough ISO 9001:2015 Clause 8.4.2 - Who Is The "Its" in (a)..The Supplier or Their Supplier? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 11
S Which ISO 9001 Clause applies to "Procedures are outdated"? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 31
R ISO 9001:2015 Clause 7.1.5.2 - Is Measurement traceability applicable? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 1
Q How to comply with ISO 9001:2015 Clause 7.4 Communication ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 3
Q ISO 9001:2015 - Right method to address clause 6.1? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 12
J ISO 9001:2015 Cl. 8.1 - 'and to implement the actions determined in clause 6' ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 7
M Referencing ISO 9001:2015 clause for Audit General Auditing Discussions 10
P Design and Development Clause ISO 9001:2015 Exclusion for Medical Services Design and Development of Products and Processes 3
K ISO 9001:2015 clause 9.2.2 a. - Define the audit criteria and scope Internal Auditing 2
K ISO 9001:2015 Clause 5.1.2 Customer Focus (a) ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 2
Q Values - ISO 9001 2015 - Clause 4.1 Note 3 ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 4
A How to 3rd Party Audit ISO 9001 Clause 7.1.6 ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 5
M What do you do for ISO 9001 clause 9.1? Key Performance Indicators ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 2
T ISO 9001:2015 Clause 9.2.2 Internal Audit - Corrective Action Report Format ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 7
J ISO 9001:2015 - Clause for Correction of a QMS Nonconformity ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 4
A How to approach ISO 9001:2015 Clause 7.1.6 when 3rd Party Auditing ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 7
K What can be considered a "Post Delivery Activity" (ISO 9001:2015 Clause 8.5) ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 17
A ISO 9001:2015 Clause 9.3.2 - Management Review Inputs must be Documented? Management Review Meetings and related Processes 15
A ISO 9001:2015 Clause 7.1.1.b refers to ....? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 5
S What do I have to do for ISO 9001:2015 Clause 6.2 - Planning ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 2
S What do I have to do for ISO 9001:2015 Clause 4.1 and 4.2 ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 3
J Does the word "claim" in ISO 9001 Clause 8.2.2 mean "requirement"? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 7
Q Drawings from Client - ISO 9001:2008 Clause 4.2.3 or 7.5.4? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 3
W ISO 9001:2015 Clause 7.5.2 - Is Review and Approval applicable to Records? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 30
B Clarification of ISO 9001:2015 Clause 8.5.6 Control of Changes ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 11
S ISO 9001:2015 Clause 8.2.1 e) - Requirements for Contingency Actions ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 7
C Application of ISO 9001:2015 Clause Interpretations for Service Industries Service Industry Specific Topics 2
J Organizational Knowledge Requirements - Meeting ISO 9001:2015 Clause 7.1.6 ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 60
S ISO 9001 Clause 5 - Leadership (as a Process?) ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 29
A Quality Policy approach of ISO 9001:2015 Clause 5.2.1a ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 4
M Informational "Context of the Organization" in ISO 9001:2015 Clause 4.1 ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 132
A The English wording of Clause 5.3 of ISO 9001:2015 ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 2
Similar threads


















































Top Bottom