Clause 4.2.3 Confusion: Documents that predate the doc control procedure.

M

Motto

#1
Hello everyone… And to my fellow Canucks, Happy Canada Day!

Please bear with my questions. I’m still new and getting used to all this… :eek:

Element 4.2.3 Control of Documents is really giving me headaches. But I’m not sure if I’m making it out to be more of a headache than it actually is…

I have a bunch of documents that I know need to be controlled. The discussions in the Cove helped me so much in deciding which documents need to be controlled or not.

My question is: How to control pre-existing documents that require control that seem to have no control methods(???) :confused:

What I mean by that is… (I hope I can explain this correctly)

…We have certain documents, e.g product specs, that I know need to be controlled, but how do I control all of the old ones? Everything I’ve read about controlling a document involves giving a document a document #, a revision, effective date, page #s, etc. But how do you do that for a stack of old documents that have none of those? Do you just create a new sheet and say that’s what we’re going to use from now on? Or is there a way of controlling all the old drawings, specs, work instructions, contracts etc. – all the old documentation that needs be controlled? What about memos or notes that I feel need to be controlled?

Another example is blank purchase order forms that we had another company print out for us. They have no doc #, date, etc. We have stacks of them! How can I reference this doc and say this is controlled?

I’m panicking here! :bonk: I’m such a novice… Sorry for the silly questions…

I mean, I’ve read the clause over and over again. Is it enough to have for all blank forms/documents requiring control:
- a doc #
- a revision OR date
- page #s
- records for changes and that these docs are approved for use?
And if that is enough, how do I add those to all the pre-existing docs requiring control?

Everyone’s input is very much appreciated!

Motto
–a very frazzled quality student-
 
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A

Al Dyer

#2
The system needs to have a start point where such documents will ultimately be under "some type of control"

It might be a possibility that your "OLD" documents can be covered under some type of improvement plan that will lead to them being included as part of your "approvd plan"

Just a thought from a TS guy!!:yes:

Al...
 

Al Rosen

Staff member
Super Moderator
#4
Motto said:
Hello everyone… And to my fellow Canucks, Happy Canada Day!

Please bear with my questions. I’m still new and getting used to all this… :eek:

Element 4.2.3 Control of Documents is really giving me headaches. But I’m not sure if I’m making it out to be more of a headache than it actually is…

I have a bunch of documents that I know need to be controlled. The discussions in the Cove helped me so much in deciding which documents need to be controlled or not.

My question is: How to control pre-existing documents that require control that seem to have no control methods(???) :confused:

What I mean by that is… (I hope I can explain this correctly)

…We have certain documents, e.g product specs, that I know need to be controlled, but how do I control all of the old ones? Everything I’ve read about controlling a document involves giving a document a document #, a revision, effective date, page #s, etc. But how do you do that for a stack of old documents that have none of those? Do you just create a new sheet and say that’s what we’re going to use from now on? Or is there a way of controlling all the old drawings, specs, work instructions, contracts etc. – all the old documentation that needs be controlled? What about memos or notes that I feel need to be controlled?

Another example is blank purchase order forms that we had another company print out for us. They have no doc #, date, etc. We have stacks of them! How can I reference this doc and say this is controlled?

I’m panicking here! :bonk: I’m such a novice… Sorry for the silly questions…

I mean, I’ve read the clause over and over again. Is it enough to have for all blank forms/documents requiring control:
- a doc #
- a revision OR date
- page #s
- records for changes and that these docs are approved for use?
And if that is enough, how do I add those to all the pre-existing docs requiring control?

Everyone’s input is very much appreciated!

Motto
–a very frazzled quality student-
Motto:

New documents can be controlled by doc no., rev level (a, b, c or 1, 2,3 etc) and revision date. Control old documents by title and the date it was created or the date your system goes on-line. Next time you need to revise an old doc, you can assign a doc # and rev level. Memos are not normally used as controlled documents. If you need control, use some other document, like a standard operating procedure or work instruction that is under control.
 
M

Motto

#5
Thanks for the link, gheghe. But I've actually already printed that out and read it almost everyday while banging my head against a wall... :frust: He he...

It's a very useful article but doesn't really answer my questions. Would you, or anyone, by any chance know how I can move this query to the Documentation and Forms forum? I would cut and paste, but the moderator may not appreciate me posting the same question twice.

Thanks all!

-still frazzled-
 
#6
Motto said:
I’m panicking here! :bonk: I’m such a novice… Sorry for the silly questions…

And if that is enough, how do I add those to all the pre-existing docs requiring control?
Hello Motto,

No panic, and not a silly question... First of all we need to unfrazzle you. Take a couple of deep breaths Ok now? Good...

I think Al's idea is sound, and gheghe's link is good too.

Now: How about this approach? Your documented procedures could say that any documents created before you started applying 4.2.3 are to be regarded as revision 0 and identified by name (rather than by doc no.). Then, as you update them, you fix them up to adher to whatever procedure you have created for documents created after you applied 4.3.2.

Opinions?

/Claes

Added later: Hullo Al & db :bigwave: Simultaneous posting again, eh? Not to mention similar idea...
 
#7
Relax

First of all relax.....


If the old documents can no longer be used, then get rid of them! If they have to be used until the current supply is exhausted, then add that to your procedure or master list (if you have one). If you look at the requirements, you will find the answers are fairly simple.

How are the documents identified?
a) Name?
b) Number?
c) Color?
There is no requirement on how to identify the documents.

How is the revision status identified?
In order to find this out, you need to things. First what the revision level is, and second what the revision should be. So, the bottom line here is how do folks know they have the correct version? I think saying you will use the current supply until exhausted will suffice here, provide there is not another version available (if there is, it kinda invalidates your statement).

How are changes identified?
If there has been no changes, then that might be hard to answer. You can answer how changes will be identified in the future, but that might be as far as you can go.

As you can see, it doesn’t take much to meet the requirements.
 
M

Motto

#9
Light at the end of the tunnel?

Unfrazzling... unfrazzling... :)

Thanks for the advice...

Claes/Al: I like the idea of keeping the docs before applying the clause "separate" from the new ones. I wasn't sure I could do that. I thought all the old documentation had to be "changed" somehow... But some of the old docs only have a title, no date of creation. And some docs have no title (?!?!) Would a title be enough to reference them? How about the ones with no titles? Should I perhaps include a copy to show what the orginal doc looked like, or would that just create more problems?

The company's relatively new you see, still finding it's footing most of the time.

db: All of the documents are still being used. For this small company (10 people), they know they have the current version of a document because another individual says its the correct one! I know this won't work in the long term, especially considering the number of projects we are taking on is increasing every day. The current control method basically is: "Yeah, I wrote that... that's the right one..." Some of the docs are dated, which makes it a little easier... As for identifying changes, I can't do it for the old docs, but I was thinking for the new ones, when 4.2.3 is implemented, I'll just maintain a database and note there what changes were made to the docs as they happen.

Also, are page #s necessary for controlled docs?

It is starting to make sense now... :)
 
#10
Motto said:
Also, are page #s necessary for controlled docs?
Page numbers are helpful (at times -- especially when given the total number of pages such as 7 of 9), but ISO 9001 does not require them.

Most organizations, especially small ones can meet all of 4.2.3 with very little effort.
 
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