Closing a finding before closing meeting

[Randy]

As a person that does nothing but 3rd party audits I'll submit that a finding of non-conformity during the audit is a finding of non-conformity in the report, but then again as with many things, it is more often than not a personal decision to be made by each auditor.

I'll ask a question.......... When offering up a NC closure at the closing meeting what evidence of effectiveness to prevent recurrence can be demonstrated? .....Oops! Effectiveness to prevent recurrence?

How about another question?............ Where's the evidence of evaluation as to whether or not similar nonconformities exist or could potentially occur?........ Drat! Missed that too didn't we?

Corrective action is a timed based process, you've got to plant the seed to see if anything pops up......... Either that or you're just blowing smoke

 

[Sidney Vianna]

Not only the auditor can, but s/he must report the observation and any other relevant finding, irrespective of the categorization. The audit conclusion/reporting must be factual to the audit results.

Obviously, the auditor can also note that the issue has been promptly corrected.

 

[ferize]

Thank you all for valuable answers! Much appreciated.

 

[Nishith Neema]

The clause 10.2.1 for ISO 9001: 015 says
When a nonconformity occurs, including those arising from complaints, the organization shall:
a) react to the nonconformity, and as applicable:
1) take action to control and correct it;
2) deal with the consequences;
b) evaluate the need for action to eliminate the cause(s) of the nonconformity, in order that it does not recur or occur.
So at the first glance you could have done the correction due to audit observation and confermed with the auditor but you need to evaluate other similar process for elimination of the root cause. This is the essence of Quality System.

 

[Bev D]

Again - a nonconformance is a nonconformance.
An observation should only be that, I observe a thing you might insider changing but you don’t have to. It often borders on consulting and may even be misguided.

 

[Kirby]

Maybe not helpful to the discussion, but it reminds me of a time when a CB auditor made some observations in the audit report.
The next year, same auditor, noted that his observations (read: consulting advice) had not triggered any action. He then wrote them as findings.
Unfortunately I dealt with this guy for a few years while working with two different companies.

Like many (not all) in that position he was (IMHO) auditing to his "interpretation" of the standard and unwilling or unable to understand that what works for some may not be the best approach for others. His comment was something like "effectiveness cannot be verified" when the subject of the observation / NC was also the subject of one of our performance metrics where we had met our internal level of acceptance. It just wasn't what he thought was the best way. I really think his heart was in the right place, but I sincerely believe he overstepped.

I realize that this may have warranted a protest or at least a conversation with the CB, but, and I know there will be some "Quality Warriors" that may take me to task, it was just easier to give him what he wanted.

 

[Randy]

Maybe not helpful to the discussion, but it reminds me of a time when a CB auditor made some observations in the audit report.
The next year, same auditor, noted that his observations (read: consulting advice) had not triggered any action. He then wrote them as findings.
Unfortunately I dealt with this guy for a few years while working with two different companies.

Like many (not all) in that position he was (IMHO) auditing to his "interpretation" of the standard and unwilling or unable to understand that what works for some may not be the best approach for others. His comment was something like "effectiveness cannot be verified" when the subject of the observation / NC was also the subject of one of our performance metrics where we had met our internal level of acceptance. It just wasn't what he thought was the best way. I really think his heart was in the right place, but I sincerely believe he overstepped.

I realize that this may have warranted a protest or at least a conversation with the CB, but, and I know there will be some "Quality Warriors" that may take me to task, it was just easier to give him what he wanted.

Simple, if you're less than pleased with his conduct and/or style, invite him not to come back and request a change of auditor.

 

[Bev D]

I won’t take you to task. No wait, yes I will.
I know how difficult it is in the moment to protest and how easy it is to just relent. But two very negative things happen:
- the solution you provide can add wasteful work to your organization that will never go away
- the auditor is emboldened to continue his malpractice with you and with others

 

[Mike S.]

I've had BS NC's issued and wanted to fight them with the registrar, but was not permitted to do so by higher-ups. They were afraid of repercussions.

 

[Nishith Neema]

The Audit is a system audit, done on the basis of clauses. When you register a complaint against the said observation, it not only goes to the person raising the NC but also to the main certifying agency which again reviews the merit in protest. Frequent protest raises a question mark on the efficacy of the agency.
So continue with your efforts and think of changing the agency.