Company catalogue - A Controlled Document?

D

dbulak

#1
Company catalogue

Our company passes out a catalogue to any one who wants one. This catalogue is is also used by our sales people a a technical reference. Our auditor has said this is a controlled document. My question is do our sales people has to have issued numbers on the catolgues that they keep at their desks? I keep a master list of documents and my thought was to just name the sales people who have them. Any thoughts and of course proper wording would be helpful.

Thanks
 
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RoxaneB

Super Moderator
Super Moderator
#2
Why does it need to be a controlled document?

4.2.3 Customer communication
The organization shall determine and implement effective arrangements for communicating with customers in relation to
a) product information,
b) enquiries, contracts or order handling, including amendments, and
c) customer feedback, including customer complaints


I don't a requirement for it to be a controlled document...unless the effectiveness of its usage is in question here. By not controlling the document, do you find the quality of your product adversely affected?

Maybe your auditor feels it needs to be controlled as it is listed on your master list of documents?

I do not list our product catalog on our master list of documents. Instead, it is listed in 4.2.3 of our Manual as a tool through which we communicate what we manufacture. Too many Customers. Too many Sales people. Too many revisions. To "control" it would be not be the most efficient use of my time...or anyone elses.

The nitty-gritty of our Customers requirements can be found in our Sales systems either in the Orders or in the Product Studies...the product catalog is just a tool to help determine which route to take.
 
C

Craig H.

#3
dbulak said:
Our company passes out a catalogue to any one who wants one. This catalogue is is also used by our sales people a a technical reference. Our auditor has said this is a controlled document. My question is do our sales people has to have issued numbers on the catolgues that they keep at their desks? I keep a master list of documents and my thought was to just name the sales people who have them. Any thoughts and of course proper wording would be helpful.

Thanks

Control a catalogue given to a customer??? What if they throw it out?

Tell you what, I'll physically change out the ones you have in Hawaii for a small fee plus expenses.




WHy not put, in the usual fine print, that "The information contained in this document was believed to be accurate at the time of printing. Please check with your Sales Representative for current pricing and availability." Of course, you will need to make sure that the Sales Representatives have correct and current information.

As I write this, though, I have a nagging feeling that you should run this past a UCC lawyer to make sure it covers all the bases.

Craig
 
R

Randy Stewart

#4
dbulak,
I thought this stuff died with QS. We took at hit for this during our registration audit way back when.

I agree with Craig, if you have to put the disclaimer wording in it or the "Printed Copy is Uncontrolled" verbiage.

I take it they couldn't find anything so they had to throw this BS flag at you. I can't count the number of outdated tooling catalogs that are around this place. Maybe we should take it up with our vendors! :biglaugh:
 

Mike S.

Happy to be Alive
Trusted Information Resource
#5
Depends what you use your catalog for, IMO. Many of the products we sell are "standard" from the company catalog, and often the customer calls-out the product catalog number only as an identifier for what we are supposed to make. And the QA people use the catalog specifications to determine approve/reject status of tested product. But sometimes we revise the data in the catalog between printings. So, I created one controlled "master catalog" kept in QA that has all of the latest data in it. To revise the data, a revision form is completed by the requestor of the change and is signed-off by the appropriate authorities. Once approved, the change is noted in my "master catalog" and a copy of the revision form is given to all sales people to notify them of the change and then Sales determines if there are any current orders for the product so the change can be discussed with them and so they can notify any customers who may order it in the future from an old catalog.

The customer copies we hand out are not controlled, and we say "specifications subject to change without notice" in the catalog to :ca: . So far this has worked well over several years.
 
D

dbulak

#6
Catalogue

I did not mean to be misleading with my question. First, the catalogue is not controlled and not listed in my master list of documents--at this time. This is the issue with my auditor. he says we have to control it because our sales people might reference it when selling product.

My question is, if I have to controll it, how about just listing it a reference item "catalogue from 1999"--locations--"as needed." There woud be no numbering of each catalogue and my master list would include it as a something of reference used all over the company and given to customers.

Any thoughts? Does this make sense?
 

Mike S.

Happy to be Alive
Trusted Information Resource
#7
dbulak said:
I did not mean to be misleading with my question. First, the catalogue is not controlled and not listed in my master list of documents--at this time. This is the issue with my auditor. he says we have to control it because our sales people might reference it when selling product.

My question is, if I have to controll it, how about just listing it a reference item "catalogue from 1999"--locations--"as needed." There woud be no numbering of each catalogue and my master list would include it as a something of reference used all over the company and given to customers.

Any thoughts? Does this make sense?
Some questions to consider, IMO:

Is the catalog exactly correct as printed right now?

Will you possibly ever revise any of the specifications within the catalog?

What will happen when you produce and distribute a new catalog?

IMO you must answer these questions and be able to cover any possibility that QA or Sales might not have exactly the right information all the time.
 

Wes Bucey

Quite Involved in Discussions
#8
controlled versus uncontrolled copy

Mike S. said:
Some questions to consider, IMO:

Is the catalog exactly correct as printed right now?

Will you possibly ever revise any of the specifications within the catalog?

What will happen when you produce and distribute a new catalog?

IMO you must answer these questions and be able to cover any possibility that QA or Sales might not have exactly the right information all the time.
Consider the fact that items within most catalogs are subject to independent revision (design, availability, price, etc.) IMO, the catalog should not be a Controlled Document, but rather an Uncontrolled Report or "snapshot" of the product line current at the time of publication.

I think we are skirting the main issue here of defining a "controlled document," which is deciding the distribution of controlled and uncontrolled copies.

In most auditor's opinions and mine as an auditee, an organization may make a decision regarding "distribution" of a controlled document in such a way that "uncontrolled" copies of the controlled document are allowed to be distributed when stamped or printed with a specific disclaimer that users/readers must check with an organization for the current approved revision level of a document.

"Controlled copies" are distributed to a list of individuals, departments, or organizations, who are notified when a new revision supersedes the one in their possession ("pushing" the new revision, rather than copy holder "pulling" a new revision.) If the organization does not keep a list of holders and inform them when a new revision is available, IMO, the organization is not controlling the copies. Mechanics of retrieving the obsolete copy or assuring its destruction vary according to the document and the liklihood of someone making a critical decision based on the obsolete document.
(for example, Guys in the shop should have the old document removed and destroyed to ensure no obsolete product is produced. Similarly, in-house and external inspectors should also have up-to-date revision to ensure they don't err when performing the inspection.)
Persons holding controlled copies who are not directly involved in producing or inspecting products made to the new revision are frequently entrusted to discard/destroy previous document revision and replace it with new document revision.
 
G

Greg B

#9
dbulak said:
Our company passes out a catalogue to any one who wants one. This catalogue is is also used by our sales people a a technical reference. Our auditor has said this is a controlled document. My question is do our sales people has to have issued numbers on the catolgues that they keep at their desks? I keep a master list of documents and my thought was to just name the sales people who have them. Any thoughts and of course proper wording would be helpful.

Thanks
Dbulak,

I agree with RcB, Craig and Randy S. If you don't want it controlled then don't have it controlled. End of Story. My auditor has been trying to get me to control a document that aids our Mine Technical Officer in performing his job. He made it himself and it is a checklist (reminder) of how he likes to work. The auditor says that it is very clear and precise and that it should be a Work Instruction. He will pick me up for it again this year (3rd in a row). We don't want it so it's not controlled. The auditor is paid by US to audit OUR system not HIS. Oops....nearly fell off my soapbox again... :vfunny:

JMHO
Greg B
 

RoxaneB

Super Moderator
Super Moderator
#10
Greg B said:
Dbulak,

I agree with RcB, Craig and Randy S. If you don't want it controlled then don't have it controlled. End of Story. My auditor has been trying to get me to control a document that aids our Mine Technical Officer in performing his job. He made it himself and it is a checklist (reminder) of how he likes to work. The auditor says that it is very clear and precise and that it should be a Work Instruction. He will pick me up for it again this year (3rd in a row). We don't want it so it's not controlled. The auditor is paid by US to audit OUR system not HIS. Oops....nearly fell off my soapbox again...

JMHO
Greg B
Sounds more my "To Do" list, which contains my routine tasks like month-end items, audits, training, orientations, 5S, etc. I would never control that! Rather, should I have a Vulcan mind dump and forget how to do an audit, then I'll reach for the suitable work instruction.

I don't know what the checklist is or if it's format. If it's like a "To Do" list, then I'm with you, Greg. If it's a sequence of how tasks are carried, well....then maybe your auditor has a legitimate concern. However, if the lack of this document's control has not adversely affected your system, I wouldn't worry about.
 
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