Competence Evaluation by Internal Auditors - TS 16949

Elsmar Forum Sponsor

SteelMaiden

Super Moderator
Super Moderator
#2
Re: Competence evaluation by internal auditors

I am not TS, but...Look at training and see that evals are done. Look at corrective actions and customer complaints. Do they point to people not knowing what/how to do things. What does the person himself have to say. Is he satisfied he has had the training he needs. Does he understand what he is doing and why?

Honestly, a lot of the time a person's coworkers are better qualified to judge the competence of personnel than their supervisors :notme:
 

Jen Kirley

Quality and Auditing Expert
Staff member
Admin
#3
Re: Competence evaluation by internal auditors

Steel Maiden's take on evidence is good, I will just add to it by submitting my view than an auditor is authorized to ask if a training program's methods are sufficient to prepare or show for competence.

TS wants us to audit the process and not just check the boxes. So... it's a question of what is taught and how the accomplishsment is shown. Consider a task or process in preventive maintenance. What kind of training is done? If it's e-learning and passing a multiple choice test at the end, does the test include what a person should know to be able to function? Does the learning method prepare the trainee to function competently?

There are good reasons to not want to take on that level of detail when auditing. If you're not a training expert it is no good to critique an assessment unless it just plainly makes no sense when you review it. You do get to ask yourself if it makes sense.

Some organizations keep records of reading the procedure, and then "qual sheets" where a trainee goes through aspects of the job and a mentor or supervisor affirms satisfactory understanding to function by signing and dating as such. This is what Steel Maiden was referring to--a subject matter expert would better know competence when confronting it. We just need to be able to show that's happening.

To sum it up, an internal auditor can't necessarily directly audit competence in the absence of accidents or corrective actions, but an auditor can and should audit for evidence the organization attempts to achieve and record competence.

I hope this helps!
 
S

SilverHawk

#4
Re: Competence evaluation by internal auditors

Recently, our TS auditors have been asking about the competency of our internal auditors whom are performing the manufacturing process audit (MPA)and product audit (PA). They are of opionion that these internal auditors must be competent and those Administration, HR, Sales, and non-production 'background" internal auditors are no longer competent to audit manufacturing & product audits. The question is - does the internal audiotr know anything about manufacturing processes and/or the product charateristics?
 

SteelMaiden

Super Moderator
Super Moderator
#5
Re: Competence evaluation by internal auditors

Recently, our TS auditors have been asking about the competency of our internal auditors whom are performing the manufacturing process audit (MPA)and product audit (PA). They are of opionion that these internal auditors must be competent and those Administration, HR, Sales, and non-production 'background" internal auditors are no longer competent to audit manufacturing & product audits. The question is - does the internal audiotr know anything about manufacturing processes and/or the product charateristics?
Most of the auditors that I have seen in my career were not competent to produce steel, but they still audited us. Being able to do the job is not a prerequisite to auditing. What is a prerequisite is that there has been training, experience, and the "right person", you know what I mean. Not every employee is cut out to be an auditor.

As far non production being able to audit production, the more they audit the more familiar with the process they become. I like to send non-production (I want you to notice I did not say non-productive) people out to the production floor because they have a whole 'nother perspective and often times can see obvious things that are missed when you are nose to the grindstone every day. I send the production people to the admin areas so they understand that it is not al just answering phones and filing you fingernails.

I have had comments from every one of my internal auditors about the value they take back to their normal job just because they have gained insight on how things work on the other side of the fence. If a registrar's auditor ever tells me that my people are not qualified just because they cannot perform the job they are auditing, I guess I'll write a nonconformance to my registrar stating the same. Fortunately, this will never happen here. Our registrar is very helpful to us, our lead auditor is more than qualified to audit us and they not only accept the way we've set up our audit schedule, they embrace it as a way for us to foster communications as well as continually improve our processes.
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#6
Re: Competence evaluation by internal auditors

How should an internal TS auditor audit competence? Or should they?
Thanks in advance!
We auditors generally audit HOW your process has DETERMINED the auditors' competence. Generally, nonconformances are against the system of evaluation.

Only if I see audit records that provide objective evidence the auditors were definitely not competent, then I would write a nonconformance against auditor competency. I prefer to write findings agaist the system, not people.
 

Ettore

Quite Involved in Discussions
#7
Re: Competence evaluation by internal auditors

From Ford Motor Company
Customer-Specific Requirements nov. 2003

Internal Auditor Qualifications Internal quality management system auditors shall be qualified per 4.39.1 or 4.39.2 below.
4.39.1 Be trained and evaluated in the following areas:

• The Technical Specification ISO/TS 16949:2002
• Related core tools (e.g. APQP, SPC, MSA, FMEA, PPAP)
• Applicable customer-specific requirements, and
• The automotive process approach to auditing. And, as part of the training, participates in practice sessions equivalent to one audit day in:
• Case study audits, and/or
• Auditing role plays/simulations, and/or

On-site audits. Core tools and customer specifics can be taught by company or industry recognized experts/specialists.
4.39.2 Or, have conducted at least 5 internal ISO/TS 16949:2002 internal audits during the prior 24 months under the supervision of an auditor trained as specified in 4.39.1 . The audits will need to have covered all requirements of the technical specification and all processes directly

Internal Auditor Trainer Qualifications

4.39.3 The training listed in 4.39.1 above shall be conducted by trainer(s) who have themselves successfully met the requirements of 4.39.1 or 4.39.2.
4.39.4 Process and Product audits may be conducted by appropriate process specialists from the affected areas without full quality management auditor training.
By
 
Last edited:

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#8
Re: Competence evaluation by internal auditors

Recently, our TS auditors have been asking about the competency of our internal auditors whom are performing the manufacturing process audit (MPA)and product audit (PA). They are of opionion that these internal auditors must be competent and those Administration, HR, Sales, and non-production 'background" internal auditors are no longer competent to audit manufacturing & product audits. The question is - does the internal audiotr know anything about manufacturing processes and/or the product charateristics?

They are over-reaching. That is not a valid position. The standard does not get that specific, and neither can the auditors. They can only address it if there is objective evidence of failure.
 
S

SilverHawk

#9
Re: Competence evaluation by internal auditors

In the past we have always send our admin. staff (internal auditors) to audit the production activities and verseversa...but now with the commenst from the TS auditors we are equally at lost... even Ford requirements mentioned that for those who audit the mfg process and product audits they are specialsit and not required to undergo QMS training. But the TS auditor insisted that for that very reason, mfg process & product audit need to be conducted by "qualified" personnel.
 

pmwong

Involved - Posts
#10
Re: Competence evaluation by internal auditors

One of our customer who is TS 16949 certified audited us and ask how do we evaluate our auditors competence.

Our answer given to them was we do have a evaluation form to be filled in by the lead auditor each time the internal auditors had carried out the audit.

The form will be filled up by the lead auditor and verified by the management representative. If the comments given by the lead auditor is average based on the criteria in the form, them the auditor needs to carry out more audits and to be evaluated by the lead auditor. Practice makes perfection.

The customer accepted the explanation and seen the documents of evaluation.
 
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
Wes Bucey Training evaluation (Competence vs. performance) Training - Internal, External, Online and Distance Learning 3
G Competence Evaluation Forms - Example forms/appraisals for competence Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 5
J Defining staff competence - Small mechanical workshop Occupational Health & Safety Management Standards 20
N Help with basic understanding of Competence requirements ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 3
C ISO/IEC 17021-1 clause 7.1.2 - Determination of competence criteria Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 2
V ISO 9001:2015 7.2 Competence ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 35
I When exactly was "competence" added to the ISO-9001 standard? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 9
Q Internal Auditor competence for ISO 14001 ISO 14001:2015 Specific Discussions 11
I Who owns your Competence, Awareness and Training process? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 6
M AS9100D Competence and Training Records - X-Ray AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 2
J ISO 13485:2016 Section 6.2 - Documenting the process for establishing competence ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 6
A Environmental Management System Lead Auditor Competence ISO 14001:2015 Specific Discussions 2
J Training Personnel on the QMS - 7.3 Awareness or Competence ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 9
S SOP Training/Competence in 24/7 Operation contractor company ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 7
H How to Establish and Document Competence of Employees in a Small Company ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 13
sswaim Auditing Internal Laboratory Personnel for Competence General Auditing Discussions 4
M Training Competence - Contract Services ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 10
I Struggling with Training and Competence ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 10
S Evidence of Competence, Training and Awareness Training - Internal, External, Online and Distance Learning 5
A ISO 9001:2015 - Knowledge vs. Competence - 7.5.1 and 7.2 ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 10
somashekar How to Determine the Necessary Employee Competence ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 4
M Problems with Competence/Skills Matrix (6.2 Human Resources) AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 5
G Audit Finding against ISO/TS 16949 6.2.2 Competence, Training and Awareness IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 3
Sidney Vianna EMS auditor competence ISO Standard published - ISO/IEC TS 17021-2:2012 Miscellaneous Environmental Standards and EMS Related Discussions 1
A ISO 19011:2012 - Emphasis on Risk Analysis, Competence of Auditors and Vocabulary Internal Auditing 2
L Can Extent of Documentation differ due to the Competence of Personnel? ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 9
C Certificate of Conformity Competence - Training Staff the Responsibilities of Signing Quality Manager and Management Related Issues 5
F What Compliance to ISO 9001, 6.2.2 Competence, Awareness and Training Means ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 35
K Competence, Training and Awareness - Documenting Training and Confidentiality Aspects ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 12
M Training and Competence requirements in a Small Machine Shop AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 7
M AS9100 Rev C Initial Certification - Determination of Competence AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 3
G Searching for Auditor Competence and Training .ppt presentation ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 2
V Auditor Competence Noncompliance Internal Auditing 49
F CVs/Resumes & Competence, Training, and Awareness - Employee Confidentiality ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 4
F ISO 9001 Clause 6.2.2.a Competence, Training, and Awareness Requirements ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 7
P ISO 13485 Competence, Awareness and Training Requirements ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 11
S Competence Awareness and Training - ISO 9001 Clause 6.2.2 d) - How to do ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 11
L Aerospace Industry Competence Training Training - Internal, External, Online and Distance Learning 3
A Keeping Records of Competence of Employees Records and Data - Quality, Legal and Other Evidence 4
A Competence Requirements for OH&S Compliance Assessment - 4.5.2 Occupational Health & Safety Management Standards 1
D Determine the necessary Competence for personnel ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 8
somashekar Top Management and Competence, Awareness, Training ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 25
C Internal Auditor lack of Competence Internal Auditing 76
B Definition Competence - What is the meaning of Competence? ISO 9001 Clause 6.2.2 Competence Definitions, Acronyms, Abbreviations and Interpretations Listed Alphabetically 13
E Calibration Clerk Competence and Training General Measurement Device and Calibration Topics 14
B How to Evaluate Competence of an Internal Translator ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 3
A Competence for performing compliance audits - 4.5.2 Miscellaneous Environmental Standards and EMS Related Discussions 6
K Determining Competence - What is the best way to determine employee competence AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 12
C Temporary Laborer Training Requirements - 6.2.2 Competence, Awareness and Training ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 12
D HR (Human Resources): Matrix of Competence in USA - Education Level aspect ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 14

Similar threads

Top Bottom