Competence, Training and Awareness - Documenting Training and Confidentiality Aspects

K

Ken B.

#1
Hello all,

I'm having an issue with training records and was hoping for a little input.
When we started our ISO system 10 years ago we did not have a Human Resources department so I created forms for training needs and traing effectiveness. We have grown considerably over the years and now have around 80 employees. Our current Human resources department has the documentation to meet the requirements without the duplicate paperwork. I'm getting strong resistance from our H.R. manager as she does not want these forms to be available to our third party auditor. How are most companys documenting training? Is it through H.R. or does it fall back on Q.C. to retain these records? Once again, the standards are being met with the current H.R. paper work that is completed by supervisors during reviews, both 90 day and yearly.
Thanks for your help,

Ken
 
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qusys

Trusted Information Resource
#2
Re: Competence, training and awareness

Hello all,

I'm having an issue with training records and was hoping for a little input.
When we started our ISO system 10 years ago we did not have a Human Resources department so I created forms for training needs and traing effectiveness. We have grown considerably over the years and now have around 80 employees. Our current Human resources department has the documentation to meet the requirements without the duplicate paperwork. I'm getting strong resistance from our H.R. manager as she does not want these forms to be available to our third party auditor. How are most companys documenting training? Is it through H.R. or does it fall back on Q.C. to retain these records? Once again, the standards are being met with the current H.R. paper work that is completed by supervisors during reviews, both 90 day and yearly.
Thanks for your help,

Ken
ISO 9001 does not suggest you how to proceed.
It is upo to the organization to put in place processes or activities to meet the clauses of the standard.
I suggest you to raise this issue in your organization's management review, so that the management can assign resources and responsibilities and send out recommendations for improvement related to this process.
Another suggestion is to implement an electronic system to retain records, but, again, this priority should be assigned by your management too.
Try to make business process reengineering, mapping the process and try to work at the disconnects that you have spoken about.
Process mapping and BPM are good tool to face this isseue in multidisciplinary team and process approach.
:bigwave:
 

RoxaneB

Super Moderator
Super Moderator
#3
Re: Competence, Training and Awareness - Documenting Training and Confidentiality Asp

Hello all,

I'm having an issue with training records and was hoping for a little input.
When we started our ISO system 10 years ago we did not have a Human Resources department so I created forms for training needs and traing effectiveness. We have grown considerably over the years and now have around 80 employees. Our current Human resources department has the documentation to meet the requirements without the duplicate paperwork. I'm getting strong resistance from our H.R. manager as she does not want these forms to be available to our third party auditor. How are most companys documenting training? Is it through H.R. or does it fall back on Q.C. to retain these records? Once again, the standards are being met with the current H.R. paper work that is completed by supervisors during reviews, both 90 day and yearly.
Thanks for your help,

Ken
What is HR's reason behind not wanting a third party to see the records of whether or not training was completed. I don't see any confidentiality issues here.

Where I have seen issues arise is in perfomance appraisals and I've found that third party auditors have typically been okay with simply being walked through the process.

However, demonstrating that John Doe was trained on the Quality Policy should not pose a confidentiality problem.
 
K

Ken B.

#4
Re: Competence, Training and Awareness - Documenting Training and Confidentiality Asp

This has been an ongoing struggle for me for several years. I believe it's because H.R. simply does not want to be involved with an audit. The main problem is that I am not always notified when we hire a new employee and it's getting very difficult for me to stay on top of. Wage information is on the H.R. paperwork but I don't see why this should pose as a problem. Our auditor is not interested in how much a certian employee is paid.
 
C

Chance

#5
Re: Competence, Training and Awareness - Documenting Training and Confidentiality Asp

The main problem is that I am not always notified when we hire a new employee and it's getting very difficult for me to stay on top of.
This happens to me too! I am not notified when new hires come in. I have to figure out myself so I can give them QMS orientation. The biggest challenge for me is when an employee leaves the company, HR don't notify me neither, so when I find out that one employee leaves, I have to check his/her office and see if my QMS book is still there.
 

RoxaneB

Super Moderator
Super Moderator
#6
Re: Competence, Training and Awareness - Documenting Training and Confidentiality Asp

Wage information should be kept separate, in my opinion.

What I have seen is part of a new employee orientation is an "orientation checklist" or "training package". This includes who they need to meet with, orientations/introductions to be done, safety info, etc. Newbie and the person they are meeting with sign off as things are done. I also have seen this done with specific timelines so that the mandatory stuff is covered off within the probationary period (like 3 or 6 months).

This checklist should contain nothing confidential regarding the employee...it serves as a record that they have been trained and can do the job that they were hired to do.

Checklists/Packages should be tailored to the job title. For example, you probably would not show the new President how to operate a forklift, just as you would probably not show the new warehouse operator the details of the accounting system.
 

somashekar

Staff member
Super Moderator
#7
Re: Competence, Training and Awareness - Documenting Training and Confidentiality Asp

I'm getting strong resistance from our H.R. manager as she does not want these forms to be available to our third party auditor.
This is a strong indicator that your competency requirement for a HR manager was not met or was not specified.
6.2.1 General
Personnel performing work affecting conformity to product requirements shall be competent on the basis of appropriate education, training, skills and experience.
NOTE Conformity to product requirements can be affected directly or indirectly by personnel performing any task within the quality management system.

You need to first apply 6.2.2 b) to your HR manager >>>
where applicable, provide training or take other actions to achieve the necessary competence,
 
R

realchrisforce

#8
Re: Competence, Training and Awareness - Documenting Training and Confidentiality Asp

Hello all,

I'm having an issue with training records and was hoping for a little input.
When we started our ISO system 10 years ago we did not have a Human Resources department so I created forms for training needs and traing effectiveness. We have grown considerably over the years and now have around 80 employees. Our current Human resources department has the documentation to meet the requirements without the duplicate paperwork. I'm getting strong resistance from our H.R. manager as she does not want these forms to be available to our third party auditor. How are most companys documenting training? Is it through H.R. or does it fall back on Q.C. to retain these records? Once again, the standards are being met with the current H.R. paper work that is completed by supervisors during reviews, both 90 day and yearly.
Thanks for your help,

Ken
We've been ISO compliant for almost half a decade and in business well over. We've struggled but found that training logs and training effectiveness checks should be kept with the supervisors in charge of the staff they oversee.

For us, we're re-tooling our system so that it can be done via an intranet system, connect the respective training to the respective work instruction (WI), and as WI are updated update those training records. Auditors will want to see how specific training is connected to specific WI.

The HR dept. shouldn't release entire employee folders containing training records for confidentiality issues, the supervisors are holding onto the training records keeps confidentiality issues separate.
 
Q

Quality-Geek

#9
Re: Competence, Training and Awareness - Documenting Training and Confidentiality Asp

We keep training files separate from other, more sensitive personnel files. This allows anyone to look through the training files. We also just started using a matrix for each department showing when each associate has completed each piece of training. So far it's going really well - I hope we can keep it!

Hope this helps...
 

qusys

Trusted Information Resource
#10
Re: Competence, Training and Awareness - Documenting Training and Confidentiality Asp

This has been an ongoing struggle for me for several years. I believe it's because H.R. simply does not want to be involved with an audit. The main problem is that I am not always notified when we hire a new employee and it's getting very difficult for me to stay on top of. Wage information is on the H.R. paperwork but I don't see why this should pose as a problem. Our auditor is not interested in how much a certian employee is paid.
Wages data should be retain apart. I do not think that they are part of your QMS and ISO 9001 does not ask for them.
On the other hand , records for competences, training and education are part of QMS as per ISO 9001 requirement.
They shall be available for audit, including the internal ones, otherwise you cannot assess the effectiveness of your QMS during your internal audit programme.
I have the sensation that process approach is missing based upon what you said that you have no info about new hired.
Did you ever perform an internal audit about this process?:bigwave:
 
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