Competition: A good or bad thing?

Kevin Mader

One of THE Original Covers!
Staff member
Admin
#21
Sorry Mike, I read your questions, but got on to other things in my last response.

Here we go:

Competition to have the lowest ERA or the most wins usually leads to unwanted behaviors, such as numbers manipulation. Inevitably, the opposing team will eventually put up some runs. In an effort to try to keep the ERA the same, or lower it, the pitcher may elect to stay in the game (if given the choice) beyond their usefulness. The pitcher may try reaching back for a little extra and end up hurting themselves. This plays out all season long if you follow baseball as much as I do. What good is a hurt pitcher to your ball club. Now say your team averages 6 runs a game, the opposing team averages 5. Do we create “friendly” competition amongst teammates in order to see how low an ERA we can produce? What good does it serve? For those of you following this thread having an interest in the difference between Maximizing and Optimizing situations, this scenario serves that point equally well. Now apply that to two runners on a team, or more classically, two drivers on a race team. Pushing one another unnecessarily hard usually results in too many negatives: eventual division between teammates or worse (wrecked car or pulled hamstring). This is not to say that folks don’t need to improve, I’m just saying this isn’t the way to do it.

As for the salesmen, well, Dr. Deming serves up several examples in his books. The one that takes my attention is the sales position that never seems to produce much, where by the salesperson in that area never seems to be able to rank high enough to win the prize. Ultimately, the region this salesperson supported was much different than the regions where other salespeople had things good. Who worked harder? Who deserves to be recognized? Who would really know?

A few years back, Nissan ran Subaru to re-establish Subaru as a player in the automaker’s world. Nissan recognized that with Subaru in ‘the game’ the field was a better place for it. The innovations coming from the Subaru camp helped Nissan to keep focus and improve in areas with in their own company. With out Subaru, the need might still be there (Honda, Toyota, Ford, GM, etc.), but less so. Can you imagine Ford running GM, or GM running Chrysler? Not here! Once the jugular is exposed, we go for the throat! To bad, because in the end, we the customer loses out, and eventually, so do the organizations. The theory is simple: the components in a system need to work together to achieve optimum levels of value. By competing against each other as a means, the opposite occurs and the system suffers.

Regards,

Kevin
 
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Mike S.

Happy to be Alive
Trusted Information Resource
#22
Sounds like you and your friend Alfie don't have too much good to say about competition, Kevin. Are there ANY occasions where you think competition is good?
 

Kevin Mader

One of THE Original Covers!
Staff member
Admin
#23
Hey Mike,

Well, I am a hipocrit in that I enjoy sports and seeing the Sox win. But even Alfie would concede that there are more important "arenas" to concern ourselves with.

In expanding the thread, how do folks feel about the use of competition in schools (dealing with things mostly outside of sports, but we can discuss that too)? A good thing or a bad thing?


Regards,

Kevin
 
J

Jim Biz

#24
2 Cents worth of Good or Bad?

Hi Kev - been awhile but I stopped in today to see how everyone was doing.

Leave it to my learned colleague (sp?) to ask a question with so much space for opinion....

Is competition good or bad ? - Or is scliced bread the best or worst invention ever? :confused:

But seriously - I think it does depend ... on a lot of variables.
"Is the competition percieved by management as a threat or a challenge"?

"Does the competition greatly effect "The almighty bottom line"?
or is it part of a short term business problem.

Is the competition an ongoing entity? or this months flash in the pan?

Can It be good - sure if Mgt recognizes it as a challenge out there they can overcome with hard work & inovative thinking

Can it be bad - Sure - if it is viewed as an excuse to lower quality Long term simply for reduced pricing. --- (Does the word NAFTA fit here??:bonk: )

Competition in Schools - again many too many variables.
Tax base support different in each district through out the country.

Comparison of a district weighted with an overabundance of childern in the lower levels (K-6) against districts with an overpopulation of higher level students (7-12)

In our state - there are 2 different sets of teacher qualifications -

One for "downstate" that requires "ongoing classwork for teachers - and mandatory BS degrees" prior to teaching any class
And another for a single northern county - that allows "some - even 2 year degrees" education OR an abundance of life expieriences as a requirement to teach.
 
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Mike S.

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#25
Seeing the Sox win???? :vfunny: Sorry. My O's make your Sox look great most years. I am rooting for them to beat the curse and the Yanks because my O's won't be able to do it and I root for the O's and whoever is playing the &%#@ Yankees!

Competition in schools, huh? How do you get around it?

SCHOOL SPORTS: If I only have so many spots on the team, and can only start 5 or 9 or 11 or whatever, how else am I gonna decide who starts or even who plays what position? Randomly? No, I'm gonna use an admittedly imperfect but better-than-random method of measurement and evaluation of the resulting data to decide.

OTHER: How else are you gonna decide who is class valedictorian, or who gets a (non-financial need based) scholarship, or who gets first-chair in the orchestra, or who gets into a class with a limited number of openings? Same answer as above: Randomly? No, I'm gonna use an admittedly imperfect but better-than-random method of measurement and evaluation of the resulting data to decide.

JMO.
 
E

energy

#26
Academia ?

Originally posted by Mike S.
Sounds like you and your friend Alfie don't have too much good to say about competition, Kevin. Are there ANY occasions where you think competition is good?
Mike,
Because we are twisting and turning in the lurch towards schools due to no plausible anwers to questions asked, and I'm starting to get a little nauseous, time for a good long irrelevant post.
June is booked, solid. Starting on July. Being in the front end of the company, watching Marketing turning into leads, turning into request for quotes, turning into presentations, turning into negotiations and ending up as contracts, is very eye opening. Being the only one in the Office, channeling calls, e-mails and Internet Leads, I see it all and the outcome. Competition in this business is brutal and the potential customer has only one thing on their mind. How cheap? We lose jobs for $200 less because fly by night companies promise them the world and they are gone with yesterday’s newspaper when the sh*T hits the fan. I know we are good. We know we are good. But, you could get contracts all day long and not honor them. Change your name, business, etc. Can’t catch what you can’t see. The competition relies on under-bidding, and the customer thinking that they are smarter than the system, goes with their assumed wisdom. So, we ask if competition is a good thing with certain values. I say, competition is a good thing, if the playing field was equal. But, coupled with consumer greed to get the best deal because they think they are smarter and the amount of people out there ready to fleece unwary consumers because of their avarice, it’s a wash. Pro and cons=equal. Who has the best show? In the end competition has nothing to do with Quality. Only those jobs that are referred to others from happy customers, are the true measures of Customer Satisfaction. I guess one might say that that is competition, of a sorts. I’ve always been downstream from the Product Realization effort. Contracts were signed, parts were ordered and the specifications defined, before it even darkened my doorway. Never gave it a thought. I see it now and it’s an ugly world out there amongst the so called “competition”. Hey, Kevin, go back to sleep!

;) :smokin:
 
A

Al Dyer

#27
I'll weigh in on the light side, would life, goals, thoughts, plans, etc.. be any fun without some type of competition? Does not a major part of the human endeavor and life evolve around some type of competition.

If there were no competition, who would have the greenest grass, the shinyest car, etc...

Competition leads to goals and goals lead to success????

Al... :)
 

Mike S.

Happy to be Alive
Trusted Information Resource
#28
Re: Academia ?

Originally posted by energy
Competition in this business is brutal and the potential customer has only one thing on their mind. How cheap? We lose jobs for $200 less because fly by night companies promise them the world and they are gone with yesterday’s newspaper when the sh*T hits the fan. I know we are good. We know we are good. The competition relies on under-bidding, and the customer thinking that they are smarter than the system, goes with their assumed wisdom. So, we ask if competition is a good thing with certain values. I say, competition is a good thing, if the playing field was equal. But, coupled with consumer greed to get the best deal because they think they are smarter and the amount of people out there ready to fleece unwary consumers because of their avarice, it’s a wash. Pro and cons=equal. Who has the best show? In the end competition has nothing to do with Quality.
;) :smokin:
A couple thoughts, Energy.

If you're booked solid for June, isn't business good? Aren't you getting lots of customers who DON'T just look at "how cheap"?

I say the playing field IS equal overall, but it is a large field, with some bumps and some ruts that even out on the whole. The customers who go with a competitor who under-bids and gets shoddy work or a later price increase loses along with you while the cheapo company wins. But if a customer goes with you and gets good value, you and the customer win and the cheapo company loses.

I recently got 3 prices for a home improvement. The cheapest company has been around awhile and also gave the fastest completion date, but made a seedy comment about "you don't need a building permit -- just don't tell anyone". The #2 company was higher priced but seemed more reputable based on recommendations, community involvement in charitible causes, and my personal judgement. The #3 company was kinda neutral but highest in price -- but they are very popular among the most well-to-do customers -- they kinda have created a niche market as the "hip" place to go for the well-heeled. I went with #2 which I think will give me the best overall value. We'll see. But all 3 companies will get some business and make some customers happy and others unhappy. In the end I believe the overall best company will get the most business.

In our business it is similar despite radically different products. Some of our customers go with cheapo suppliers and get burned, sometimes they get lucky. But overall we're doing better than the cheapo companies.

One thing for sure, IMO, competition has forced us over the years to create new products we would not have otherwise done, improve our quality, improve our marketing and service, and lower our prices. In the end, the consumer won and we survived, so that is a win of sorts as well.

I don't presume to know your business, but FWIW I throw out an idea: If you're the best quality and do a truly professional job, try to market yourself to the more well-heeled customers who on average may look more at things like quality, reputation, and "professionalism" stuff like the shine on your truck, punctuality for estimate, the look of your workers, and how well-spoken and polite the salesman is more than just "how cheap".
 
E

energy

#29
Re: Re: Academia ?

Originally posted by Mike S.
A couple thoughts, Energy.

If you're booked solid for June, isn't business good? Aren't you getting lots of customers who DON'T just look at "how cheap"?

II don't presume to know your business, but FWIW I throw out an idea: If you're the best quality and do a truly professional job, try to market yourself to the more well-heeled customers who on average may look more at things like quality, reputation, and "professionalism" stuff like the shine on your truck, punctuality for estimate, the look of your workers, and how well-spoken and polite the salesman is more than just "how cheap".
Absolutely, we target high end customers and word of mouth is still the best way to get those consumers. However, people see the truck (our rolling billboard) and ask for quotes. When we see other quotes, substantially lower, we just keep on plodding along. My point was that competition is important but there are those that make claims that aren't true. I think it was Kevin, or you, mentioning that in sports, false stats forces teams to go in the wrong direction (targets) as far as really improving the team. In this business, without the high end word of mouth customers, we cannot compete with dishonest companies offering cheaper knowing full well they cannot possibly do a quality job at those prices. One quick example; got a call on this rainy morning from a lady who had someone "fix" her leaking roof in February. Not. She wants us there tomorrow!! Fat chance. She went with cheaper and knows it now. You're right about the need for the educated consumer, but they only think they are!:vfunny: :smokin:
 
D

David Hartman

#30
Energy,

Does your "rolling billboard" say anything on it about the fact that you may cost a little more, but the certainty that the job is done right is worth it.

I think that you need to somehow educate those seeing your truck, to the fact that the service may be more expensive, but your company will be there for the long term should a problem arise (perhaps some mention of the company's history in the area, or their contibutions to the community, etc.). Or, possibly your company could offer to provide prospective customers with the phone numbers of your satisfied customers.

Just some rambling thoughts.:)
 
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