Complaints to CB concerning certified organization

Peters

Quite Involved in Discussions
#1
Do you have any experience with contacts between customer of the organization and CB of the organization (for example complaints concerning organization QS)? Is it frequent situation?
 
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Sidney Vianna

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Staff member
Admin
#2
Is it frequent situation?
It is not that frequent, but CB's must comply with ISO 17021, which requires us to have a complaint resolution process. Part of the process is to let the certified organization know we have received a complaint about their system.
 

Stijloor

Staff member
Super Moderator
#3
It is not that frequent, but CB's must comply with ISO 17021, which requires us to have a complaint resolution process. Part of the process is to let the certified organization know we have received a complaint about their system.
I wished it was more frequent. Customers may not be aware of the complaint provisions in ISO 17021.

Stijloor.
 

Sidney Vianna

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#4
I wished it was more frequent. Customers may not be aware of the complaint provisions in ISO 17021.

Stijloor.
So do I, but most organizations which require their suppliers to be ISO 9001 certified are utterly ignorant about the process. One of the reasons we have so many miscreant CB and auditors in the game is for the total lack of keeping them accountable via the feedback channels.

Something that the Aviation, Space & Defense ICOP Scheme is addressing via the OASIS feedback loop.
It is about time for the IAF, ISO and other stakeholders to learn (a lot) from the ICOP Scheme, while, far from perfect, is the BEST (BY FAR) Industry Enhanced Accredited Scheme for Management System Certification.
 
#5
From a review, here at the Cove, there are many times clients have 'rolled over' rather than make an issue of audit findings they didn't agree with. Clearly then, there should be a much higher occurence of concerns making it back to a CB's management. That isn't happening and in this case, for the CB, 'no news' isn't 'good news'.........
 
J

JaneB

#6
From a review, here at the Cove, there are many times clients have 'rolled over' rather than make an issue of audit findings they didn't agree with. Clearly then, there should be a much higher occurence of concerns making it back to a CB's management. That isn't happening and in this case, for the CB, 'no news' isn't 'good news'.........
I do agree. And I do wish that clients were far, far more aware of the possibility of holding their CBs accountable, their right to push back/complain and that they did it more often. We might then get better standards of auditing and certification!!
 
J

JaneB

#7
One of the biggest reasons they don't do it, in my opinion, is that that they worry, for example that:
  • it will 'count against them'
  • they 'wont' get certified/pass the audit'
  • their auditor will be tougher on them
  • their auditor will get them back by issuing an NC etc etc

and so forth.

Yes, I've sat through many an opening meeting etc. where the auditor has dutifully recounted the complaints procedure. I have yet to sit through one where the auditor has ever set out to remove any of the worries above, or given them examples of how and when they might choose to express dissatisfaction or complain. Or even heard of a CB approaching their clients (not through an auditor) to get independent feedback themselves. There are still a few too many CB auditors out there who still think they have a right to act like police/petty dictators. And too few informed clients who not only know that they don't, but know how and when to do something about it if they're ever unfortunate enough to encounter such a one.
 
#8
Now I'm back actively involved with a CB, I hear more horror stories (not about my CB auditors, thankfully) about auditors demanding all kinds of things!

It's a paradox that a CB is a supplier, yet most organizations don't treat them like their commodity (or other service) suppliers. under normal supplier relationships, if a supplier delivered below expectations, they'd be given a corrective action!

I know may people don't like (or know how) to address and auditor, often fearing confrontation. It's also true to say that many auditors have walked into a firestorm without them doing anything. I once encountered a CEO who threatened me with all kinds of intimidations - simply because he'd heard, secondhand, of a potential non-conformity I'd mentioned during the 'stage 1' (yes we did them, on site back in the 90's).

It can be difficult for a CB's management to decipher who has a legitimate issue over those clients who are - how can I put this diplomatically - 'high maintenance. However, if the issue cannot be resolved at the auditor level, I encourage discourse with the head office management.....
 
J

JaneB

#9
Andy, yes it's true that there are also 'high maintenance' clients - and it can also be hard for auditors faced with such. Auditing isn't always an easy job, and it's good for us to remember that, too.
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#10
Now I'm back actively involved with a CB, I hear more horror stories (not about my CB auditors, thankfully) about auditors demanding all kinds of things!

It's a paradox that a CB is a supplier, yet most organizations don't treat them like their commodity (or other service) suppliers. under normal supplier relationships, if a supplier delivered below expectations, they'd be given a corrective action!

I know may people don't like (or know how) to address and auditor, often fearing confrontation. It's also true to say that many auditors have walked into a firestorm without them doing anything. I once encountered a CEO who threatened me with all kinds of intimidations - simply because he'd heard, secondhand, of a potential non-conformity I'd mentioned during the 'stage 1' (yes we did them, on site back in the 90's).

It can be difficult for a CB's management to decipher who has a legitimate issue over those clients who are - how can I put this diplomatically - 'high maintenance. However, if the issue cannot be resolved at the auditor level, I encourage discourse with the head office management.....
It looks like this thread may have taken a turn as a result of misunderstanding the OP's question. I think he's asking about complaining to a supplier's CB, not about an audited company complaining about an auditor to their own CB.
 
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