Composite Profile Tolerancing Clarification

optomist1

A Sea of Statistics
Trusted Information Resource
#11
yes, I'm using the Advanced GD&T test from Alex K....good stuff, earlier this year I took his intro GD&T on-line did pretty well. I'm glad to hear you confirm that this is "thick stuff"....yes I've found that round about Chapter 24...one needs to do a bit of review...of the earlier chapters....each of those Geometric Characteristic Categories i.e. Form, Orientation etc is just one word....but represents a lot more.

thanks for the response...:thanks:

Marty
 
Elsmar Forum Sponsor

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#12
yes, I'm using the Advanced GD&T test from Alex K....good stuff, earlier this year I took his intro GD&T on-line did pretty well. I'm glad to hear you confirm that this is "thick stuff"....yes I've found that round about Chapter 24...one needs to do a bit of review...of the earlier chapters....each of those Geometric Characteristic Categories i.e. Form, Orientation etc is just one word....but represents a lot more.

thanks for the response...:thanks:

Marty
You've asked some very good questions and I've learned things from the answers, so thanks for that. You should be aware though, that your desire to strangle engineers and CAD designers will increase proportionately with your knowledge of GD&T. :tg:
 

optomist1

A Sea of Statistics
Trusted Information Resource
#13
Hi Jim,

No one likes the enforcer, be it a Quality Engineer, Six Sigma Type or a GD&T oracle!!!

This site continues to impress me not only with the breath of available subject matter, but the depth found in each area.

Getting back to the Composite Profile matter...stated in my own rudimentary words, it is essential (obvious to experienced GD&Ters) that when establishing/selecting or designating Datum Features/Planes/Axes etc. one must first examine what particlar Geometric Characterisitc one wishes to control/specify...from there one can then select or designate the appropriate Datum Feature(s)/Plane(s)/Axes to accomplish this......

seems so simple or obvious as to be....a HUGE dahhh moment!!!!

Regards,
Marty
 

optomist1

A Sea of Statistics
Trusted Information Resource
#14
Hi To All,

Back to the Cove of Knowledge, yet another clarification on the same subject this time as shown on the attached pages 24-12 & 13.

The term "Maximum Permissible Error" is used in question #5 on page 24-12 and requires some interpretation. Specifically, in the lines 1, 2, 3 & 5 are Squareness/Orientation and Form and in line 4 is Size of Opening...looking for a little confirmation of my understanding as to the differences between the two.

In the prior instances (rows 1, 2, 3, & 5), Maximum Permissible Error is merely the stated Tolerance Zone size, either 1.6 of 0.4. For the Maximum Permissible Error - Size of Opening it is twice the stated lower segment tolerance 0.04 or .08. The lower segment controlling the size height, width of the opening.

Thank you for your assistance and knowledge.

Regards,
Marty
 

Attachments

optomist1

A Sea of Statistics
Trusted Information Resource
#15
Hi To All,

Back to the Cove of Knowledge, yet another clarification on the same subject this time as shown on the attached pages 24-12 & 13.

The term "Maximum Permissible Error" is used in question #5 on page 24-12 and requires some interpretation. Specifically, in the lines 1, 2, 3 & 5 are Squareness/Orientation and Form and in line 4 is Size of Opening...looking for a little confirmation of my understanding as to the differences between the two.

In the prior instances (rows 1, 2, 3, & 5), Maximum Permissible Error is merely the stated Tolerance Zone size, either 1.6 of 0.4. For the Maximum Permissible Error - Size of Opening it is twice the stated lower segment tolerance 0.04 or .08. The lower segment controlling the size height, width of the opening.

Thank you for your assistance and knowledge.

Regards,
Marty
 

optomist1

A Sea of Statistics
Trusted Information Resource
#16
In all composites the upper segment controls both translations and rotations relative to the datum features specified while the lower segment is limited to rotational control only to the specified datum features.

The lower segment of a position composite retains both translational and rotational control among the pattern members but only rotational (orientation) control to the specified datum features.

The lower segment of a profile composite constrains size/form/and orientation of the specified profile but only rotational control (orientation) not translational (location) to the specified datum features.

Furthermore all composite callouts release their pattern members from simultaneous requirements with other identically referenced callouts on the drawing.

So the size of the composite controlled profile feature in figure 24-6 is limited by the lower segent profile tolerance 0.4 or +/- 0.2 from the basic feature profile.

Paul
Hi Paul,

I pretty much understand your helpful post, yet I am unable to visualize a sketch or diagram that represents your second point regarding, "The lower segment of a position composite retains both translational and rotational control among the pattern members but only rotational (orientation) control to the specified datum features."

Are you saying that if there is a pattern of features say slots, that the lower segment retains translational (location) and rotational (orientation) control
, but only rotational (orientation) to the specified Datums?? So that the pattern of features may move translational/location within the larger tolerance zone in the upper segment, but rotational/orientation is restricted to the specified tolerance as related to the referenced Datum in the lower segment.

I know this is kind of convoluted....but your input would be of help.

Thanks,
Marty
 
T

tonefordays

#17
One analogy, is to think of a hole pattern like a bolt circle. One of the holes in the bolt circle is a datum, The datum hole would have more degrees freedom in relation to the primary datums, however each individual hole that makes up the pattern would need to be held to tighter position of accuracy relative to the datum hole in the bolt circle to maintain the integrity of the bolt circle.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Paul F. Jackson

Quite Involved in Discussions
#18
I pretty much understand your helpful post, yet I am unable to visualize a sketch or diagram that represents your second point regarding, "The lower segment of a position composite retains both translational and rotational control among the pattern members but only rotational (orientation) control to the specified datum features."

Are you saying that if there is a pattern of features say slots, that the lower segment retains translational (location) and rotational (orientation) control
among the pattern members, but only rotational (orientation) to the specified Datums?? So that the pattern of features may move collectively as a pattern for translational/location within the larger tolerance zone in the upper segment, but rotational/orientation is restricted to the specified tolerance as related to the referenced Datum in the lower segment.

I know this is kind of convoluted....but your input would be of help.

Thanks,
Marty
I inserted my comments to your quote in red, sorry for the late response... I was paticipating in the hunt.
 

optomist1

A Sea of Statistics
Trusted Information Resource
#19
Hi Paul,

Hopefully the hunt was productive...I'm assuming Deer, if, so you could have chosen from a couple bucks that frequent back yard (w/apple trees)...about 8 pointer. I keep threatening to get a good crossbow, to many houses for a shot or 30.06...but I digress.

I can't overstate the value of this site...and thanks again for helping clear up my uderstanding. Given your responses, I assume that you have taken Alex's courses....they are pretty good. If, so I may have a few more questions as near the end of Adv. Concepts of GD&T.

Have a good Thanksgiving Day...

Marty
 

Paul F. Jackson

Quite Involved in Discussions
#20
I never took Alex's training but I taught from it once at Ford.

In the late 1970's I took a class called "Modern Engineering Tolerancing" taught by a professor from Lawrence Technology now LTU... It preceeded the 1982 Standard and we basically learned the symbology to manage tolerance notation replacement.

In the 1980's I attended GD&T training taught by Ed Roth from Sandia National Laboratories. He was entertaining and it was fun being in his class. I got hooked on GDT and it became a passion of mine. I was slated to speak at a conference in Nashville in Oct 2001 following Ed Roth in the agenda to present my work on variable-limit tolerance capability preditions and then 9,11 happened and it got called off. I was so looking forward to seeing him again and thanking him for nurturing me in the language but it didn't happen. I spoke at a later conference but he wasn't there.

I had the pleasure once to experience Bill Tandler presenting his GD&T training with special emphsis applied to CMM Metrology. He is by far the most technically talented teacher I have ever experienced. Our Global GDT Technical committee was screening his materials and presentation for Ford Motor Company Training options.

Hope you enjoy all there is to learn from Alex.

Paul
 
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
J Angularity or Composite profile - Angularity callout on a recent print Inspection, Prints (Drawings), Testing, Sampling and Related Topics 4
K Half-Fractional vs. Full Factorial Central Composite Design Using Minitab Software 6
E Composite Position Calculation on a 12 X 4 Hole Pattern Inspection, Prints (Drawings), Testing, Sampling and Related Topics 13
S Understanding, Analysis and Monitoring Quality Defects on Composite Components Statistical Analysis Tools, Techniques and SPC 3
K Where do I find Frequencies and Composite Scale in Minitab? Using Minitab Software 2
M Reporting Composite FCF on Layout (GD&T) Various Other Specifications, Standards, and related Requirements 4
M Measuring Holes in Material Stack - Carbon Composite-Aluminum Alloy-Titanium Statistical Analysis Tools, Techniques and SPC 6
D Gage R&R on the Center Deflection of Composite Tubes Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 5
C Composite Materials Machining - Out of Specification Holes in Parts Manufacturing and Related Processes 8
F Composite AutoClave Internal Audit Checklist - needed AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 8
C Validate the idea of a Composite Performance Index Quality Tools, Improvement and Analysis 4
B New Japanese automotive launch (composite plastics molding) - Acceptable Cpk? Capability, Accuracy and Stability - Processes, Machines, etc. 12
C Composite Process Capability Index - Cpk is not additive Capability, Accuracy and Stability - Processes, Machines, etc. 3
Jim Wynne Composite deck material -- any experience? Coffee Break and Water Cooler Discussions 5
C CCp : Composite Cp. A new star born (?!) Statistical Analysis Tools, Techniques and SPC 8
L Classes offered for training on composite quality assurance and inspection? Training - Internal, External, Online and Distance Learning 2
Brizilla User Profile - How do I edit my profile info? Elsmar Xenforo Forum Software Instructions and Help 3
I Lifetime Support Calculation - Thermal Operating Profile Reliability Analysis - Predictions, Testing and Standards 7
M How to verify profile gages provided by customer General Measurement Device and Calibration Topics 5
E Department Plan for QA and HSE (profile, plans, structure, goals, etc.) Misc. Quality Assurance and Business Systems Related Topics 2
G Gear Profile & Lead Report Manufacturing and Related Processes 1
P Romer Arm - Profile of a Surface Changing General Measurement Device and Calibration Topics 4
R Reporting Profile of a surface with U modifier Inspection, Prints (Drawings), Testing, Sampling and Related Topics 4
B Profile of a Surface Callout on this Drawing General Measurement Device and Calibration Topics 4
O Can a Profile of a Surface have a Diameter Symbol? Inspection, Prints (Drawings), Testing, Sampling and Related Topics 3
R Temperature Profile for Transport Simulation (Sterile Eye Drops) Other Medical Device Related Standards 1
P Profile Tolerance and CPK Manufacturing and Related Processes 3
K Can a Surface of a profile be applied to a feature of size? GD&T questions Inspection, Prints (Drawings), Testing, Sampling and Related Topics 1
Q Form IPC 1720A Assembly Qualification Profile still required? Various Other Specifications, Standards, and related Requirements 1
J Profile of Surface with Basics and Angle Inspection, Prints (Drawings), Testing, Sampling and Related Topics 10
B Requirement to have Customer Signature Profile on File Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 4
T CMM Inspection of Profile Tolerance Inspection, Prints (Drawings), Testing, Sampling and Related Topics 15
M Measuring a circle's profile Inspection, Prints (Drawings), Testing, Sampling and Related Topics 2
C Complex Surface Profile as a datum Inspection, Prints (Drawings), Testing, Sampling and Related Topics 8
D Profile of a Line of a radius of 25mm basic dimension - Question Inspection, Prints (Drawings), Testing, Sampling and Related Topics 6
M Surface Profile and True Position Question Inspection, Prints (Drawings), Testing, Sampling and Related Topics 5
R Capability for CMM Scanned Profiles on a feature with a Bilateral Profile Tolerance Capability, Accuracy and Stability - Processes, Machines, etc. 26
C Inspecting a Profile Tolerance for a Die Cut Gasket Inspection, Prints (Drawings), Testing, Sampling and Related Topics 2
K Profile of a Surface Tolerance - Part with a 195 mm radius on it Inspection, Prints (Drawings), Testing, Sampling and Related Topics 9
S Surface Profile of a Hole - The meaning of the tolerance in the provided drawing Inspection, Prints (Drawings), Testing, Sampling and Related Topics 1
AnaMariaVR2 A Profile of the Pharmaceutical Manufacturing Industry: Russia Pharmaceuticals (21 CFR Part 210, 21 CFR Part 211 and related Regulations) 1
B Surface Profile Callouts - How the profiles are being dimensioned Inspection, Prints (Drawings), Testing, Sampling and Related Topics 5
C I need to verify the surface profile of a part - Sine plates General Measurement Device and Calibration Topics 4
optomist1 Contour vs. Profile - Is there a connection between "Contour" & "Profile"? Inspection, Prints (Drawings), Testing, Sampling and Related Topics 12
optomist1 ASME GD&T Certification Test - Converting Coordinate Tolerances to Profile Tolerances Inspection, Prints (Drawings), Testing, Sampling and Related Topics 8
optomist1 Profile of a Surface - Applying Profile of a Surface Geometric Control Symbols Inspection, Prints (Drawings), Testing, Sampling and Related Topics 6
A Customer Profiles - Creating a Customer 'Profile' for our Top 10 Customers Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 2
B Measuring the Profile of a Surface Inspection, Prints (Drawings), Testing, Sampling and Related Topics 19
C Reporting Profile of a Surface Results on an Internal Cylindrical Feature Inspection, Prints (Drawings), Testing, Sampling and Related Topics 5
J Reputable Third Party Inspection (Metrology Lab) In USA? Cam Profile Measurement General Measurement Device and Calibration Topics 5

Similar threads

Top Bottom