Conflict with External Auditor in ISO 9001- Number of Fire extinguishers

W

wessamsheta2000

#1
Hi all
a conflict just happened with me in our suvilliance audit with the external auditor

Briefly, the auditor entered our store and saw 3 fire extinguishers matching with our safety procedures and our instrucions.
but he protested that it is not enough

so people, does he has the right to say just a comment while we are following our procedures (write what we do, do what we write)

I see that unless we are following our procedures, he has no right to questioning our documents un less some incident or accident happened cause of it.

Am I right or not
pls refer in your answer to the standard it self
 
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Wes Bucey

Quite Involved in Discussions
#2
Re: Attention people, big conflict with Ext. Auditor in ISO 9001

It is not up to you to demonstrate you meet the Standard. It is up to the auditor to "show you the shall" by specifically citing a clause of the Standard which applies to his comment.
 

antoine.dias

Quite Involved in Discussions
#3
Re: Attention people, big conflict with Ext. Auditor in ISO 9001

I don't see how ISO 9001 is requiring this except that you have to know and fulfil your customer requirements.

Maybe a sector specific ( hydrocarbon industries ) requirement - part of the customer requirements - is violated.

But as Wes already said it's up to the auditor to indicate which requirement was not fulfilled.

Best regards,

Antoine
 
G

Gert Sorensen

#4
Re: Attention people, big conflict with Ext. Auditor in ISO 9001

Show me where ISO states the number of fire extinguishers needed anywhere? :bonk:
 
T

tyker

#5
Re: Attention people, big conflict with Ext. Auditor in ISO 9001

There has been a long, and at times tedious, debate recently on the cove concerning safety and ISO 9001.
The previous respondents are correct that, unless there is a contractual requirement, the number of extinguishers should not merit a nonconformance.
Anyone is entitled to an opinion though so if the auditor genuinely believes the number or type of extinguishers to be inadequate or not meeting legal requirements he may feel he has a duty to bring this to your attention and could record it as an observation in his report.
 
G

gereard_kgb

#6
Re: Attention people, big conflict with Ext. Auditor in ISO 9001

I would refer to point 6.3 and 6.4 of the standard.

The infrastructure and work enviroment must be such to make sure the product is in conformance with the requirments.
If you stated 3 extinguishers are OK that should be OK, IMHO, unless... there are some specific legal regulations in your jurisdiction that say otherwise.
Good luck!
 
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W

wessamsheta2000

#7
Re: Attention people, big conflict with Ext. Auditor in ISO 9001

OK, my point of view is not clear enough to you

so we need to know exactly what is the difference between ISO standard requirements and whatever the auditor said is one of the requirements ?????

so I need your help in this, cause I am here not taking the external auditors as an enemy but I am just want to pay your attention that sometimes, they want you to make some thing from their point of view and not at all required from the standard or even logic at all.

eventually my example about the fire extinguishers, it is just an example to make you see my point of view. (but on the other hand it is real case)

and for your info, it is not a contractual or customer requirement.

so I wish this could help you in judging my case

Thanks any way
 
G

gereard_kgb

#8
Well, auditors are people and they've got their biases.
I do agree.
Some times they just want you to do things that are not fully or at all justified.
IMHO, it depends on the relation with them how are you going to deal with it.
From my experience it seams that if you've got a good long-time relating with auditors for some things you can convince them and for some just agree... ;)

That's our experiance and way we deal with such cases.
 
D

D.Scott

#9
:2cents:

Wes has made the point that it is up to the auditor to detail where you are not meeting the requirements. That should be "end of story" until he does.

You didn't say if he wrote a nonconformance for this but I guess that has to be assumed or you wouldn't be questioning it.

The standard (ISO 9001:2000) does address 6.3 infrastructure and 6.4 work environment. Both of these requirements are very subjective and leave a lot of room for interpretation by an auditor. Playing Devil's Advocate for a moment, if I were the auditor and found myself in a 250,000 square foot facility with only 3 extinguishers, I may wonder how far someone would have to run to find the closest one. If I was auditing a process that used flammable material and there was an oven nearby, I would expect an extinguisher to be nearby. I would also feel this fell under the infrastructure requirement in that if the product were to burn up in a fire, I don't suppose it would achieve conformity.

I guess the point I am trying to make is we spend a lot of time discussing why an auditor is wrong without knowing all the facts. I think we should try to be open to what an auditor finds for us. If we don't fully understand, we need to ask for clarification. Maybe he wasn't pointing out a nonconformance. Maybe it was just an observation. Whichever way, it probably wouldn't hurt to consider what he says. I really don't believe auditors are "out to get us". The good ones really do have the best interest of your company in mind. Take the time to discuss it with them.

Dave
 

SteelMaiden

Super Moderator
Super Moderator
#10
The number of fire extinguishers is not spelled out by ISO 9001. Ask him nicely how he knows how many you should have. (he may be right, he may be full of it) Tell him that you will be happy to look into it as an opportunity to improve your safety program, but you will not accept an ISO 9001 nonconformance. BUT-this is only valid advice if you have not integrated your safety program into your QMS.
 
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