Conflict with External Auditor in ISO 9001- Number of Fire extinguishers

B

Bill Pflanz

#11
Ask the auditor for his credentials on safety. If he is a trained, knowledgeable, experienced auditor on the safety requirements, you may want to pay attention to his comment. If he is not qualified in the area of safety, he is wrong in reporting the finding and there is no reason to listen to him.

Bill Pflanz
 
Elsmar Forum Sponsor

Doug Tropf

Quite Involved in Discussions
#12
I am not familiar with your country's safety regulations, however in the USA the Occupational Safety and Health Administration regulates / specifies the number of fire extinguishers required. Some states also have similar regulations. As others have stated, I don't see the connection to ISO 9001 requirements.
 
W

wessamsheta2000

#13
Ok Dave

You may be 90% right in the case you tell but again you assume the perfect auditor, the best factors which the auditor can his advise or observation will be useful (big store, small no. of Extinguishers, source of fire....)

all I want to say that not every thing from the auditor could be taken as it OK, but u can questioning or argue cause u simply know exactly the ISO 9001 standard requirements (this point was taken as an observation but I will fight till it cancelled)

so I am encourging every one to read & understand the standard very very deep.
even the wording of the standard are in some way not specific but this can be taken on both sides.

I hope that I made my point clear

........................................................................................................

another point just came on my mind
about the same case exactly, I now know my rights exactly that there are certain requirements from the standard

and as an internal auditor, did I have the right to say that these no. of fire extinguishers is not enough even a procedure said so or not
 
C

crendfrey

#14
I am not familiar with your country's safety regulations, however in the USA the Occupational Safety and Health Administration regulates / specifies the number of fire extinguishers required. Some states also have similar regulations. As others have stated, I don't see the connection to ISO 9001 requirements.
Also in the US local inspections by the local fire marshal.
It is my understanding Local/Federal Regulations must be maintained including updating permits (in our case welding) keeping of emergency lighting logs, etc.

I do not believe, and I may be wrong, but I do not believe an auditor can supersede OSHA and or Local Laws. We are obligated to meet these regulations. We elect to exceed them in our case.
 

BradM

Staff member
Admin
#15
I'm just dovetailing off of Doug's and Crendfrey's posts.

Here in Texas (I'm sure in most places) the Authority Having Jurisdiction (AHJ) is the ultimate authority. For example, a city/city inspector (AHJ) can have requirements that supercede the national code. I would most probably think there would be gov't specifications for the proper # of extinguishers given the size of facility, nature of business, etc. Just saying that if you are in compliance with your areas requirements, you should be fine (barring customer/regulatory specific requirements).

I would think your procedures should be written where you state you will maintain compliance with the requirements of the AHJ. If you are in compliance with this, you have not told yourself to do something different, and there is not a higher order requirement through customer/regulatory compliance, I would think you should be covered.
 
#16
In our most recent audit, the auditor pointed out a lack of documented training on using a recently installed jib crane (250 lbs max.) and possible regulatory issues, etc. This went back an forth but in the end, it was not a finding. The auditor's experience in safety compliance auditing and safety consulting tended to create a bias in this situation. While I agreed that further investigation of the pertinent OHSA requirements, etc. were in order and that he was probably correct in his advice, this is not a ISO 9001 or TS16949 non-conformance. While there is a slim possibility that this situation (and yours) might be a finding under TS section 6.4.1, I cannot imagine how it could be a finding under ISO9001 unless I missed a SHALL....SAFETY somewhere.
ISO/TS 16949:2002 Section 6.4.1 said:
Product safety and means to minimize potential risks to employees shall be addressed by the organization, especially in the design and development process and in manufacturing process activities.
We installed the crane to minimize the risk of a repetitive motion injury from repeated lifting of a 75 lb. unit. The installer instructed all of the users on operation. However, this instruction was not documented. All users could demonstrate proper operation, we have maintenance records for the equipment and no injury reports. OSHA regulations for overhead crane training notwithstanding, this is NOT a QMS non-conformance.
 

Cari Spears

Super Moderator
Staff member
Super Moderator
#17
I am not familiar with your country's safety regulations, however in the USA the Occupational Safety and Health Administration regulates / specifies the number of fire extinguishers required. Some states also have similar regulations. As others have stated, I don't see the connection to ISO 9001 requirements.
In addition to OSHA regulation, we are visited (unannounced) 4-5 times a year by a Fire Marshall who works for the city of Sterling Heights.

Its regulated enough - I would not concur with a finding about the number of extingishers no matter which ISO9001 clause an auditor tried to cite.
 
D

D.Scott

#18
Ok Dave

You may be 90% right in the case you tell but again you assume the perfect auditor, the best factors which the auditor can his advise or observation will be useful (big store, small no. of Extinguishers, source of fire....)

all I want to say that not every thing from the auditor could be taken as it OK, but u can questioning or argue cause u simply know exactly the ISO 9001 standard requirements (this point was taken as an observation but I will fight till it cancelled)

so I am encourging every one to read & understand the standard very very deep.
even the wording of the standard are in some way not specific but this can be taken on both sides.

I hope that I made my point clear

........................................................................................................

another point just came on my mind
about the same case exactly, I now know my rights exactly that there are certain requirements from the standard

and as an internal auditor, did I have the right to say that these no. of fire extinguishers is not enough even a procedure said so or not

Wessam,

I understand and appreciate your position. You are correct that you have the right to question and discuss the opinions of your auditor. I firmly believe though that I am not suggesting a "perfect" auditor but an average one. It is my belief that most auditors are not out to "nail" your company; they are there to help your company. I think, even if what they say doesn't always fit what we want to hear, they have the advantage of seeing other systems and when they feel something might help you, they offer it in good faith. I don't think there is any harm in listening to what he has to say even if it proves to be wrong for your system.

One problem we have all seen is where an auditor makes an honest error and writes a finding based on his misinterpretation of a requirement. This will happen from time to time because the standards are written generically enough to fit a wide range of companies. It's easy to audit the "shalls". You either do it or you don't, no argument. "Organization shall have a written procedure" ..There is no procedure ... Write a finding. There is objective evidence so there is no question. The problems start when the standard says "(6.3)The organization shall determine, provide ......." without calling out the specifics of how you are supposed to do that. The company may view this as "we have determined and provided this" and they probably have. Remember though that part of the auditors obligation is to determine the suitability and effectiveness of your system. Check out the information for 6.3 in ISO 9004 and you will find a lot more detail on the thinking that was applied in inserting the requirement into the system. ISO 9004 is only a guide and you aren't audited to that standard so you aren't required to go that far. It does however give some great guidance for objectives and continual improvement.

The point is, you don't have to take the advice but it is presented for your consideration. The same as an auditor's observation or opportunity. Both ISO 9004 and the auditor may be looking at parts the standard with different eyes. The standard is full of requirements that don't actually say "what is enough" or "how to do it". Different people will address the requirement in different ways. The auditor has to determine if you not only address the requirement but is the way you address it suitable and effective.

This is further complicated by the fact that the auditor isn't there to consult. He can't say "Hey, I was at Bill's yesterday and he does this ....." His knowledge gained by auditing is going to make him a pretty good judge of what works and what works "best". What is "best" for somebody else is not always best for you so he can't (and is not allowed) to say "you have to do it this way". His only opportunity to help you is to offer an observation or opportunity to allow you to do your own evaluation.

Personally, I think you would be worse off to "fight" to get the observation dropped. I think you should consider what he said and if it doesn't work in your QMS, say "thank you, we considered it but don't feel it's right for us at this time". Please do consider it though because as others here have said you may have an auditor like Randy who happens to be an expert in environmental and knows there is a local/regional law on the number of extinguishers required. He couldn't write a finding because it is outside the scope but he is trying to help you by pushing you to look into it.

I would love to see the day we acknowledge our auditors are working to help us and not "nail" us. We need to listen when we hear another interpretation of the subjective requirements in the standard. By all means, question a finding written against a subjective requirement but when it's offered as an observation or opportunity, be thankful the auditor you have is trying to help.

To end, I don't know the full story and I may be way off base. You need to do what's best for your own company. I just like to climb up on soap boxes when I have a chance :)

Dave
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#19
Wessam,

I understand and appreciate your position. You are correct that you have the right to question and discuss the opinions of your auditor. ...It is my belief that most auditors are not out to "nail" your company; they are there to help your company. I think, even if what they say doesn't always fit what we want to hear, they have the advantage of seeing other systems and when they feel something might help you, they offer it in good faith. I don't think there is any harm in listening to what he has to say even if it proves to be wrong for your system....

One problem we have all seen is where an auditor makes an honest error and writes a finding based on his misinterpretation of a requirement.... ...

... ISO 9004 is only a guide and you aren't audited to that standard so you aren't required to go that far. It does however give some great guidance for objectives and continual improvement.

The point is, you don't have to take the advice but it is presented for your consideration... ...Different people will address the requirement in different ways. The auditor has to determine if you not only address the requirement but is the way you address it suitable and effective.

...What is "best" for somebody else is not always best for you so he can't ....say "you have to do it this way". His only opportunity to help you is to offer an observation or opportunity to allow you to do your own evaluation.

Personally, I think you would be worse off to "fight" to get the observation dropped. I think you should consider what he said and if it doesn't work in your QMS, say "thank you, we considered it but don't feel it's right for us...

...He couldn't write a finding because it is outside the scope but he is trying to help you by pushing you to look into it.

I would love to see the day we acknowledge our auditors are working to help us and not "nail" us. We need to listen when we hear .... ...By all means, question a finding written against a subjective requirement but when it's offered as an observation or opportunity, be thankful the auditor you have is trying to help.

...I just like to climb up on soap boxes when I have a chance :)

Dave

Brilliant explanation Dave! :applause: Very well said.
 
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
T Conflict Mineral Regulations Reliability Analysis - Predictions, Testing and Standards 1
M Taking over Conflict Minerals responsibilities RoHS, REACH, ELV, IMDS and Restricted Substances 1
S Conflict Minerals - Tin Suppliers CMRT Miscellaneous Environmental Standards and EMS Related Discussions 2
F Conflict Mineral Smelter Question RoHS, REACH, ELV, IMDS and Restricted Substances 8
Armen Conflict of Interest if I audit the QC department? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 16
J Conflict of Interest Registrar/Notified Body/Testing House Quality Manager and Management Related Issues 4
K EU MDR Rule 11 - Does the 'Risk logic' used in Rule 11 conflict with that used in the other rules? EU Medical Device Regulations 2
D How do I show compliance to RoHS, REACH and Conflict Minerals? REACH and RoHS Conversations 6
T Interview Question - Conflict between Production and Quality Career and Occupation Discussions 9
T When T&C's (Terms and Conditions) conflict with the ISO standard Manufacturing and Related Processes 8
Wes Bucey Conflict Resolution (without bloodshed) Misc. Quality Assurance and Business Systems Related Topics 1
S FDA and Customs Label Conflict Other US Medical Device Regulations 10
Q Conflict Management - Systemic way to manage conflicts within Teams Book, Video, Blog and Web Site Reviews and Recommendations 6
F Quality Manager - Conflict of interests in organisational structure AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 3
P Law restrictions in each country [REACH, CONFLICT MINERALS, Canada Gazette] RoHS, REACH, ELV, IMDS and Restricted Substances 2
C How to handle this Inspection conflict? Second Shift Inspector? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 8
P EU Conflict Minerals Regulation Interpretation RoHS, REACH, ELV, IMDS and Restricted Substances 3
Q Conflict Minerals Reporting for Electronics Manufacturing AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 4
Q Conflict Minerals - A question on Scope RoHS, REACH, ELV, IMDS and Restricted Substances 3
B Conflict between department of MSA and Capability Study Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 1
J Lead Auditor and Quality Manager - Conflict of Interest? Career and Occupation Discussions 4
P Conflict Minerals reporting template for PPAP approval APQP and PPAP 3
S Conflict of Interest in Business Quality Manager and Management Related Issues 7
WCHorn AS9100 and Sampling - ANSI ASQ Z1.4 C=0 Conflict AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 11
M Conflict between TS 16949 clauses 7.1.4 and 7.5.1.1 IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 9
K Key Employees and Officers - How much conflict is tolerable? Quality Manager and Management Related Issues 19
R Quality Manager Reporting to Director of Manufacturing - Conflict of Interest? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 24
M ISO 14969 - Conflict in ISO 13485 - Measureable Objectives ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 4
R 5S Red Tag and ISO Procedure Red Tag - Tag Color Conflict Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 7
T Internal Conflict of Interest in Managing Suppliers Supplier Quality Assurance and other Supplier Issues 2
C Can we choose to not allow auditor back on site? Conflict of Interest? Supplier Quality Assurance and other Supplier Issues 11
J Supplier Conflict Minerals Disclosure Information and Reporting Law RoHS, REACH, ELV, IMDS and Restricted Substances 58
S Is being the QMS Representative and a Union Member a conflict? Misc. Quality Assurance and Business Systems Related Topics 3
D Internal Auditing Resource Conflict of Interest Internal Auditing 8
M Quality Control Reporting to Manufacturing - Conflict of Interest Quality Manager and Management Related Issues 6
V ISO 9001 Consultant + Welding Inspector for Same Client - Conflict of interest? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 2
Sidney Vianna Does The Cove aid in conflict of interest? Registrars and Notified Bodies 14
R Independent Auditor - Conflict of interest question Internal Auditing 19
H Can our QMS Consultant Perform Internal Audits on our behalf (Conflict of Interest)? Internal Auditing 69
D Waivers - Deviations - Responsibility -- Potential departmental conflict of interest? Manufacturing and Related Processes 6
Q Auditing Procedures we Authored - Conflict of Interest? Internal Auditing 17
A Does auditor have conflict of interest? Should we ask for different auditor? Registrars and Notified Bodies 12
J Traceabilty Conflict? Existing Inventory AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 7
M IAF Technical Comittee meeting on AB/CB conflict General Measurement Device and Calibration Topics 3
E Conflict? 2 Technical Managers identified (one for EMC, one for Reliability) ISO17025 ISO 17025 related Discussions 8
ScottK Top QA Manager reporting to VP of Sales - Conflict? Career and Occupation Discussions 2
T Work Instructions - Conflict? Toyota's method for creating work instructions ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 14
C Fitted line plot and Regression : The final conflict Statistical Analysis Tools, Techniques and SPC 2
B Dual Role Question - Metrologist AND Quality Manager - Conflict of Interest? Career and Occupation Discussions 14
CarolX Integrity lost? Conflict of Interest? ISO 9000 'Keepers' Profit from their books Philosophy, Gurus, Innovation and Evolution 42

Similar threads

Top Bottom