Conflict with External Auditor in ISO 9001- Number of Fire extinguishers

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#21
...all I want to say that not every thing from the auditor could be taken as it OK, but u can questioning or argue cause u simply know exactly the ISO 9001 standard requirements ...

...so I am encourging every one to read & understand the standard very very deep...
It is good for you to read and know the standard. But, the auditor is required to cite the reference clause in the standard or your procedure which he feels you are violating. This reason is so you are able to read the requirement and determine if you agree with his interpretation.


another point just came on my mind
.... and as an internal auditor, did I have the right to say that these no. of fire extinguishers is not enough even a procedure said so or not
I believe internal auditors should be allowed a great deal of latitude in these things. It is up to your company and your boss to decide how much freedom and authority to allow you in internal audits.
 
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Antonio Vieira

Involved - Posts
Trusted Information Resource
#22
In Portugal there's a regulatory safety requirement (Law)) that states that in a building the maximum distance you can walk without finding a fire extinguisher is 15 meters.
It’s in Portuguese, but if anyone wants it...
:cool:
 
W

walking eagle - 2010

#23
I may be reading more into this than necessary, but on page 1 of the standard under QMS-Requiements. 1.1 General
"This International Standard specifies requirements for a Quality managment system where an organization.

b.) aims to enhance the customer satisfaction through the effective application of the system, including processes for continual improvement of the system and the assurance of conformity to customer and appicable Regulatory requirements".

So after reading this it may be that the auditor is correct in stating a requlatory requirement infraction.
 
R

ralphsulser

#26
If you define the safety requirement or Fire extinguisher situation as a need and within your QMS. Isn't it auditable?
I suggest you take Sidney's advice, if anyone knows the requirements for QMS it is him. He is a master at the intrepretations here on the Cove.
 
#27
If you define the safety requirement or Fire extinguisher situation as a need and within your QMS. Isn't it auditable?
Absolutely! For example, the Continuous Improvement record for my crane installation is auditable because we submitted it into the QMS. The maintenance records for my crane are auditable because we list it in our PM schedule. However, I don't state that crane usage requires formal, documented training. Therefore, OSHA requirements notwithstanding, my lack of crane training records is not a finding.

If, my operator's could not demonstrate a working knowledge of proper crane operation and I have scrap, rework or warranty due to dropped units,
Then, we have a finding but it would have nothing to do with safety.
 

Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Staff member
Admin
#28
If you define the safety requirement or Fire extinguisher situation as a need and within your QMS. Isn't it auditable?
Any audit should have a defined scope. Auditors are not free to roam everywhere. They must stick to the game plan. If I am doing a QMS audit, I would be hard pressed to make a clear connection between the number of fire extinguishers in the building and customer satisfaction. What should tell me that I am straying away from what I am supposed to be auditing.
 
#29
Hi all
a conflict just happened with me in our suvilliance audit with the external auditor

Briefly, the auditor entered our store and saw 3 fire extinguishers matching with our safety procedures and our instrucions.
but he protested that it is not enough

so people, does he has the right to say just a comment while we are following our procedures (write what we do, do what we write)

I see that unless we are following our procedures, he has no right to questioning our documents un less some incident or accident happened cause of it.

Am I right or not
pls refer in your answer to the standard it self

Is this post serious? It's a joke, right? Honestly?

Andy
 
W

wessamsheta2000

#30
Wessam,

Remember though that part of the auditors obligation is to determine the suitability and effectiveness of your system. Check out the information for 6.3 in ISO 9004 and you will find a lot more detail on the thinking that was applied in inserting the requirement into the system. ISO 9004 is only a guide and you aren't audited to that standard so you aren't required to go that far. It does however give some great guidance for objectives and continual improvement.

Dave
Dear Dave,
First, Thankyou very much for your comments, it was very useful to me.

Second, I was just begin to write about the objectives and continual improvement.
Exactly in
1- if u have a process with a limited productivity like machine producing 100 pcs / day, with 20 days / year off (to be maintained) according to the manual

so that is our maximum objective on this point, u can't do much

my point is what if u face an auditor told u, u need to change your objective / year to prove that there is a continual improvment to your QMS (not accepted to be the same every year)
what can u do in just limited stable activities ????
and I spoke here about the direct related objectives to the process not the indirect ones (like spare parts cost .....etc)

2- whenever u will be audited acc. to ISO 9001, do u must also follow ISO 9004 requirements as one of the guidance related to ISO 9001 or u don't have to.
 
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