Conflict with External Auditor in ISO 9001- Number of Fire extinguishers

W

wessamsheta2000

#31
Wessam,

Personally, I think you would be worse off to "fight" to get the observation dropped. I think you should consider what he said and if it doesn't work in your QMS, say "thank you, we considered it but don't feel it's right for us at this time". Please do consider it though because as others here have said you may have an auditor like Randy who happens to be an expert in environmental and knows there is a local/regional law on the number of extinguishers required. He couldn't write a finding because it is outside the scope but he is trying to help you by pushing you to look into it.

Dave
Another point,
Does the observation or Opportunities of improvement does not count.
Meanswhile if I just consider it but I didn't execute it, did it will maximize to minor NC (that was my understanding)
but acc. to you if I did just thank him and I didn't follow it, no problem will happens

or I missunderstood
 
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W

wessamsheta2000

#32
Absolutely! For example, the Continuous Improvement record for my crane installation is auditable because we submitted it into the QMS. The maintenance records for my crane are auditable because we list it in our PM schedule. However, I don't state that crane usage requires formal, documented training. Therefore, OSHA requirements notwithstanding, my lack of crane training records is not a finding.

If, my operator's could not demonstrate a working knowledge of proper crane operation and I have scrap, rework or warranty due to dropped units,
Then, we have a finding but it would have nothing to do with safety.


Any audit should have a defined scope. Auditors are not free to roam everywhere. They must stick to the game plan. If I am doing a QMS audit, I would be hard pressed to make a clear connection between the number of fire extinguishers in the building and customer satisfaction. What should tell me that I am straying away from what I am supposed to be auditing.

Sorry, but I didn't get it
for the 1st paragraph, if u didn't mention the training records in your QMS, is this will excuse u to preserve records.

and about u Sidney
I think that the audit scope is the company's QMS and what is its compliance with the standard
so if u didn't mention some important activity in your QMS (like training records of the crane), I think this won't excuse u from being audited on this point as it will violate your controlling & monitoring of your QMS.

or my understanding is wrong :confused:
 
D

dendy

#33
If you define the safety requirement or Fire extinguisher situation as a need and within your QMS. Isn't it auditable?
The number of fire extinguisher situation, isn't this a fire department issue when the building was designed and inspected? In Canada it certantly is. Here we are audited by the people that check the fire extinguishers after their expiration date. So, the external auditor should have no say in the number and position of the extinguishers. But if he belives it is inadequate it should be noted and taken up with the right personnel: the supervisor that checks them. And you will have proof that you are conforming to ISO.

Like someone said previously, what made him stray off to go look at the number of extinguishers. Maybe you should look into that, if anything.

Woaw, this has to be a joke.
 
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D

D.Scott

#34
1- if u have a process with a limited productivity like machine producing 100 pcs / day, with 20 days / year off (to be maintained) according to the manual
so that is our maximum objective on this point, u can't do much

my point is what if u face an auditor told u, u need to change your objective / year to prove that there is a continual improvment to your QMS (not accepted to be the same every year)
what can u do in just limited stable activities ????
and I spoke here about the direct related objectives to the process not the indirect ones (like spare parts cost .....etc)

2- whenever u will be audited acc. to ISO 9001, do u must also follow ISO 9004 requirements as one of the guidance related to ISO 9001 or u don't have to.
1) There are many ways you can show continual improvement of the quality management system. The improvements don't have to be major and they don't necessarily have to be to the process. You can have training, document, infrastructure, etc. improvements which satisfy the requirement. The spare parts cost ... etc. you speak of could be valid continual improvements.

2) Take a look at 0.3 of your ISO 9001:2000 Standard. There you will find "Relationship with ISO 9004. You will see it is designed to complement the ISO 9001 Standard but it is a separate Standard. It gives guidance on a wider range of objectives particularly for the continual improvement of your company's overall performance and efficiency. It is a guide for moving beyond the requirements of ISO 9001, in pursuit of C/I. ISO 9004 is not part of your ISO 9001:2000 audit.

Dave
 
J

jem63

#35
The number of fire extinguisher situation, isn't this a fire department issue when the building was designed and inspected? In Canada it certantly is. Here we are audited by the people that check the fire extinguishers after their expiration date. So, the external auditor should have no say in the number and position of the extinguishers. But if he belives it is inadequate it should be noted and taken up with the right personnel: the supervisor that checks them. And you will have proof that you are conforming to ISO.

Like someone said previously, what made him stray off to go look at the number of extinguishers. Maybe you should look into that, if anything.

Woaw, this has to be a joke.
If you are auditing a company and that company identifies a process which includes a specific number of fire extinguishers within their ISO based QMS. Those fire extinguishers and the process around them falls within the scope of the audit simply because they wrote it into their ISO based QMS.

"Write what you do, do what you write and have records to prove it."

So if you include the fire extinguisher requirements within your ISO based QMS it is within the scope of the audit and the auditor is just doing his/her job by identifying the situation.
 

Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Staff member
Admin
#36
If you are auditing a company and that company identifies a process which includes a specific number of fire extinguishers within their ISO based QMS. Those fire extinguishers and the process around them falls within the scope of the audit simply because they wrote it into their ISO based QMS.

"Write what you do, do what you write and have records to prove it."

So if you include the fire extinguisher requirements within your ISO based QMS it is within the scope of the audit and the auditor is just doing his/her job by identifying the situation.
I guess in very rare circumstances, someone could make a direct correlation between the fire extinguishers and quality & customer satisfaction. But, for the most part, the existence, adequacy and number of fire extinguishers would CLEARLY be subject of the occupational health & safety MS. Just because something is documented in some type of command media does not mean it is part of the QMS. Actually most enlightened organizations integrate their management systems into a coherent, connected, business MS. If I am doing a QMS audit of an organization that has procedures, process documentations that go beyond the QMS requirements, I have to be extra careful to make sure I do not go outside of my scope.

That is why ISO 9001 0.4 states:
This International Standard does not include requirements specific to other management systems, such as those particular to environmental management, occupational health and safety management, financial management or risk management. However, this International Standard enables an organization to align or integrate its own quality management system with related management system requirements. It is possible for an organization to adapt its existing management system(s) in order to establish a quality management system that complies with the requirements of this International Standard.
 
J

jem63

#37
I guess in very rare circumstances, someone could make a direct correlation between the fire extinguishers and quality & customer satisfaction. But, for the most part, the existence, adequacy and number of fire extinguishers would CLEARLY be subject of the occupational health & safety MS. Just because something is documented in some type of command media does not mean it is part of the QMS. Actually most enlightened organizations integrate their management systems into a coherent, connected, business MS. If I am doing a QMS audit of an organization that has procedures, process documentations that go beyond the QMS requirements, I have to be extra careful to make sure I do not go outside of my scope.

That is why ISO 9001 0.4 states:
I am in agreement with you, i am just debating the situaiton and offering additional view points. :) Like i said originally, if it (the fire extinguishers) is identified within their ISO based QMS system isn't it within the scope of your audit?
 

Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Staff member
Admin
#38
Like i said originally, if it (the fire extinguishers) is identified within their ISO based QMS system isn't it within the scope of your audit?
Can you give me a scenario where it would make sense for the fire extinguishers to be part of an organization's QMS?
 
T

tyker

#40
The auditor should be working to a defined audit scope (ISO 9001 clause 8.2.2) and this will be the QMS.

I used to work for an organization with a fully integrated management system so, within the management documentation was the expense claims procedure.

I hope no-one would suggest an external auditor coming in to look at our ISO 9001 system should ask to check my expense claims (not chargeable to the customer). Any such request would be greeted with violence.
 
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