Conflict with External Auditor in ISO 9001- Number of Fire extinguishers

D

dendy

#41
If you are auditing a company and that company identifies a process which includes a specific number of fire extinguishers within their ISO based QMS. Those fire extinguishers and the process around them falls within the scope of the audit simply because they wrote it into their ISO based QMS.

"Write what you do, do what you write and have records to prove it."

So if you include the fire extinguisher requirements within your ISO based QMS it is within the scope of the audit and the auditor is just doing his/her job by identifying the situation.
During the audit, the audior saw that what was writen in the QMS matched with what he saw. Perfect audit you agree. The auditor should have walked away from the situation. But he didn't because he thought it was inadequate. Therfore, who says whats the adequate number of fire extinguishers if its not writen in any ISO standard. Its the fire department I think and I am pretty sure. So the company should put down in their QMS manual what the fire department requires as the number of fire extinguishers. Do you agree? And the company did. Its 3 fire extinguishers. Now what made the auditor see that this number is inadequate, expecially that he was auditing ISO and not EMS??
 
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Paul Simpson

Trusted Information Resource
#42
Coincidence

I have just chewed out one of our auditors for raising a non conformity about there being no fire extinguishers in a production area.

Consistent with other postings I told him that unless he could prove it has an effect on product quality then it is an observation at best.
 
Last edited:

Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Staff member
Admin
#44
Re: Coincidence

I have just chewed out one of our auditors for raising a non conformity about there being no fire extinguishers in a production area.

Consistent with other postings I told him that unless he could prove it has an effect on product quality then it is an observation at best.
:applause: THE COVE, getting auditor's bottoms chewed since 1996.

Bad auditor
:whip: THE COVE
 

Paul Simpson

Trusted Information Resource
#45
Re: Coincidence

:applause: THE COVE, getting auditor's bottoms chewed since 1996.

Bad auditor
:whip: THE COVE
Bottoms .... how quaint.
Now, we brits are just getting used to calling them asses and you guys go back to calling them bottoms! :lmao:

The one difference from normal is this guy works for me so he has to listen! :D
 
W

wessamsheta2000

#46
Another point,
Does the observation or Opportunities of improvement does not count.
Meanswhile if I just consider it but I didn't execute it, did it will maximize to minor NC (that was my understanding)
but acc. to you if I did just thank him and I didn't follow it, no problem will happens

or I missunderstood
I am sorry guys, but I didn't get a reply for this point
cos some how I got confused about it.:)
 
F

fireonce

#47
I'm afraid that you are not fully right.It's not up to you to set up the quantity of fire extinguishers but the requirements of the local law and regulatory.So you'd better confirm if the procedures meet the requirements.
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#48
I am sorry guys, but I didn't get a reply for this point
cos some how I got confused about it.:)
If I understand your question, nonconformities are mandatory, and must be addressed. Opportunities for Improvement are observations of areas which could improve. They are not supposed to be used for nonconformities. Therefore, they are not mandatory.
 
D

D.Scott

#49
I am sorry guys, but I didn't get a reply for this point
cos some how I got confused about it.:)
I can't speak to how your registrar uses "Observations and Opportunities". I am addressing this specific case regarding an observation about fire extinguishers.

The main point here is there is nothing in ISO 9001:2000 that has anything to do specifically with the number of fire extinguishers. It would be a stretch to connect fire extinguishers to quality. I made up a scenario in an earlier post trying to illustrate the point (I probably shouldn't have).

I don't know how your registrar determines when and why an observation should be written or what their intention is if you don't follow their "advice". If they intend to elevate it to a NC, it should have been a NC in the first place in which case they should have identified the requirement.

If an audit is being done to 9001:2000, the auditor would need to specify a requirement in the standard to write a nonconformance. If there is no requirement, he cannot elevate it to a NC. You would be well within your right to say "thank you, but no thanks".

Obviously if there is a local, state or other law dealing with fire extinguishers, that would certainly apply but it has nothing to do with an ISO 9001:2000 audit. You could compare it to the auditor writing you a nonconformance for littering because you tossed a candy wrapper on the floor.

I hope this clears up your confusion.

Dave
 
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