Consultant not following Process Approach

[JaneB]

Good day, all. I have been following the forums for years, but have never posted. I am the Quality Manager for an electrical cable and harness manufacturer working toward our ISO 9001:2008 and 13485 certification. Having gone through my first ISO certification with another company in 2002, I I do have some experience. My concern is that I am working with a consultant who isn't following the process approach. We are 5 months into this and have not identified key processes. Also, he is not planning to train the internal auditors in the process approach. I was under the impression that this approach was necessary for receiving certification. I would appreciate any advice you can give me. Thanks so much.

Lynda, I agree, this is a problem. I'm so pleased you've had that previous experience you mention, because this gives you some background, so you don't simply have to take everything as told.

Any 'consultant' (so-called) who is 5 months into a project and has not mentioned or discussed a process approach and presumably has neither suggested nor assisted in identifying key processes is ... well, definitely a worry at best and incompetent /misguided/out of touch at worst.

Yes, people can and alas do still get certified without really understanding what a process is. But oh how much more valuable is the whole system and the whole endeavour when one does! As you already discovered at your previous workplace. Definitely I'd be raising questions! Prepare yourself though, with suitable background reading and quotes from the Standard and its related documents.

 

[JaneB]

Being external, he may have little knowledge about your process and interactions.

Consultants are always (or almost invariably) external. And any even half-way decent consultant (I won't speak for the 'not worth a tinker's cuss' ones) should by now have identified the main processes and interactions! That's what people pay consultants for.

Yes, of course we're 'external' but we are (or should be) also very good and very skilled at identifying and analysing processes in our clients' organisations. Often we have to help our client personnel understand about processes and how to identify them... again, that's our job and what we're supposed to be doing.

Please don't make the mistake of thinking anyone 'external' can't possibly know about a company's processes. I've lost count of the number of times someone's said to me 'I can't believe how quickly you've picked up what we do'. That's one of the essential professional skills of consultants in this line of work!

 

[bobdoering]

The one thing that takes no statistics to support is that you need to maintain your quality system, not your consultant. They will cash the check and leave. As the owner of the quality system, if you are not comfortable with a system that does not sufficiently employ the process approach, you need to make some changes. Maybe even pick up a Dennis Arter book on auditing to the process approach.

 

[Stijloor]

<snip>I have found that 60-80% of Registrar Auditors don't understand the process approach and 95% of consultants.

Jeorg, I am happy to tell you that I belong to the 5%...

Still wondering about your statistics though...

Stijloor - Consultant and Auditor

 

[Lynda G]

Thank you, Jane. I will be ready for the next meeting. Everyone at the cove has been so helpful. I am grateful to all of you.

 

[Jeorg]

So Jeorg, how many Registrar Auditors do you know well enough to make that claim of yours?

I really, really want to know

Randy,

As an past auditor for 4 different registrars and 23 years experience as a 2nd and 3rd party auditor I have known probably a little over a hundred registrar auditors. I know you are being sarcastic but I did a little survey because I got so many complaints from consulting customers. Most auditors either won't admit they don't get it or they think they understand and do not. There are many very good auditors who get it but there are a lot more who do not.

 

[Big Jim]

Lynda, I agree, this is a problem. I'm so pleased you've had that previous experience you mention, because this gives you some background, so you don't simply have to take everything as told.

Any 'consultant' (so-called) who is 5 months into a project and has not mentioned or discussed a process approach and presumably has neither suggested nor assisted in identifying key processes is ... well, definitely a worry at best and incompetent /misguided/out of touch at worst.

Yes, people can and alas do still get certified without really understanding what a process is. But oh how much more valuable is the whole system and the whole endeavour when one does! As you already discovered at your previous workplace. Definitely I'd be raising questions! Prepare yourself though, with suitable background reading and quotes from the Standard and its related documents.

I would go a step (or two or three) further and say such a consultant must be living under a rock. He is certainly out of touch.

 

[Sidney Vianna]

I don't think Jeorg's percentages are too off mark. But I also don't think most of the auditors and consultants that don't show proficiency in "process approach" knowledge and application do so for lack of grey matter.

The reason why we have so many ISO 9001 certified organizations that are oblivious to the process approach is simply because NOBODY forces them to change. All the auditors working for CB's out there have been through some type of process based training. But until auditors are FORCED to force the process approach to a QMS, they won't.

In the Aerospace ICOP Scheme now, some people are complaining that they have to identify their processes so CB auditors can generate PEAR forms for the product realization processes. They seem to be on a daze, grasping for what processes the auditor will want to treat it via a PEAR. For ISO's sake The organization should have identified their QMS processes as a BASIC, FUNDAMENTAL, FOUNDATIONAL aspect. How can we accept that after 10 years of being certified to ISO 9001, AS9100, etc. the organization still struggles to identify their processes?

This is a dirty little "open secret" in the conformity assessment world: process approach to a QMS is poorly understood, weakly implemented and abysmally assessed against.

E la nave va....

 

[Jeorg]

Really? And is this based upon any research, or simply upon your own experience or hearsay? If evidence-based, please do let us all know what and where it is.

I'm guessing it's simply an opinion and you're giving percentages to try and make it sound more 'official'. It isn't.

As Randy says, I really really want to know where this came from too.

I don't, by the way, disagree that some auditors and some consultants don't understand a process approach. But not to the extent you say.

Maybe my exposure has been to the bottom side . But it is what it is. Please don't take it personal. I don't know you and I am not judging anyone.

I can understand, in a way. I did not understand the process approach for 3 years after it was introduced. Yes, I was doing Registrar audits. But no one else at our registrar understood it either. I can't tell you why it finally dawned on me.

Whether you like it or not, whether you take it personal or not, it is what it is. I suggest you do your own little investigation, auditor style. In other words, don't ask them if they understand the process approach, ask questions that will show evidence that they get it.
I think you will be shocked. I was. But I did feel better that I wasn't the only one that didn't get it right away.

 

[John Broomfield]

We have not mapped our processes yet, but certainly can do this before the next meeting. I know he is not training for process audits because I asked him. My concern is getting the best QMS for our company and not just getting certified. At my last company, we started out element based and shifted to process based a few years later with excellent results.

Lynda,

What were your criteria for selecting this consultant?

You want to base your management system on the processes your organization uses to convert customer needs into cash in the bank.

Certification is not the objective.

Certification with a management system that will be used and improved to add value faster and prevent loss sooner beyond certification is the objective.

This is why you require the process approach.

John