Consultant Participation in Registration Audit

[Helmut Jilling]

In an earlier thread here, many people opined that consultants can represent a company in internal audits. e.g. "you can outsource the whole quality system"

I agree with this position.

Unfortunately, I now need some support and references.

First, pointers to registrars that do not exclude consultants from registration audits. Please name names, as I will be contacting them.

Second, official statements that support this position. These could be pronouncements from ISO, ANAB, courts in the USA (I hate to go this far, but this is an important issue and IIRC it has actually been litigated).

Ironically, the auditor that wants to ban me from the audit has been consulting like crazy during the audit.

Thanks ever so...
Cliff Kachinske

Most good registrars do not "ban" consultants, including the two I work for - Smithers and DQS USA. The only thing we usually ask is the consultants allow the clients to answer the questions.

 

[Marc]

Re: Consultant participation in audit - help, please

Andy is correct in stating that only IATF rules forbid consultants to be present during the audit.

Present, or to be a participant in? I've never heard that a consultant couldn't be present. Only that they cannot participate.

I have bypassed this 'rule' a number of times by being listed on the organizational chart as a part time employee.

Most good registrars do not "ban" consultants, including the two I work for - Smithers and DQS USA. The only thing we usually ask is the consultants allow the clients to answer the questions.

That has been my experience. You can be there, but can't actively participate.

 

[AndyN]

Poor choice of words on my part. I based it on my experience that if the consultant was 'close by' during the audit, it wasn't acceptable (indeed a friend of mine was escorted out because the auditor complained, even though there was no participation!)

I wasn't thinking that present means 'lurking' in the background............

 

[Helmut Jilling]

Poor choice of words on my part. I based it on my experience that if the consultant was 'close by' during the audit, it wasn't acceptable (indeed a friend of mine was escorted out because the auditor complained, even though there was no participation!)

I wasn't thinking that present means 'lurking' in the background............

No problem. I just wanted to be clear that consultants are frequently present, in the room, listening to the whole audit proceedings. I never have had an issue with it. We just treat each other professionally, because we both want the client to improve and benefit.

At times, I am sure they have meetings with some of the clients outside my earshot, discussing some things, but that is none of my business.

 

[Marc]

I have never been through an audit where I didn't shadow at least one auditor, if there was more than 1 auditor. If there was only 1 I always stayed right there with the auditor. In cases of multiple auditors, I established 'escorts' to take notes and shadow each auditor.

Once I even told an auditor (Chris Shillito, the owner {or former owner or whatever} of Eagle Registrations of Dayton, Ohio) to back off an interviewee. Chris badgered the purchasing person to the point of it being totally ridiculous. I said so to his face during the audit and he backed off. I think Chris went into a daze and thought he was with DESC again or something. It was closer to an inquisition than an audit.

If an auditor ever told me I couldn't watch up close, I'd advise the company to stop the audit until we clarified the auditor's foundation. As long as I'm just standing there, unless the registrar has something in their own 'rules' / contract that prohibits a consultant from observing an audit close up, which, to this point I've not run across, I'd contest the auditor wanting me to leave the area.

 

[Helmut Jilling]

I have never been through an audit where I didn't shadow at least one auditor, if there was more than 1 auditor. If there was only 1 I always stayed right there with the auditor. In cases of multiple auditors, I established 'escorts' to take notes and shadow each auditor.

Once I even told an auditor (Chris Shillito, the owner {or former owner or whatever} of Eagle Registrations of Dayton, Ohio) to back off an interviewee. Chris badgered the purchasing person to the point of it being totally ridiculous. I said so to his face during the audit and he backed off. I think Chris went into a daze and thought he was with DESC again or something. It was closer to an inquisition than an audit.

If an auditor ever told me I couldn't watch up close, I'd advise the company to stop the audit until we clarified the auditor's foundation. As long as I'm just standing there, unless the registrar has something in their own 'rules' / contract that prohibits a consultant from observing an audit close up, which, to this point I've not run across, I'd contest the auditor wanting me to leave the area.

I am sure your approach and methods would be more than welcome in any of my audits, Marc.

 

[Marc]

This is my 'base' Escorts presentation. Escorts are company personnel, not consultants (just to clarify). Whenever an audit had more than 1 auditor, I've always had clients ensure there was a trained (by me) escort from the company shadow (up close) as an observer, to takes notes and such.

 

[CliffK]

Re: Consultant participation in audit - help, please

Let's clarify the above comment. IATF Rules say

" 4.1 - Consultants to the organization cannot participate in the audit." However, they may be present to observe, and frequently are.

Sidney explained it well. They should allow the organization to answer the questions. There is no harm in them being an observer, however. There is no need or benefit to create a hostile environment - we are all working for the same goals, after all.

I don't believe IATF rules don't apply as this is ISO 9001, not TS 16949.

The agreement between myself and the organization includes assistance during the audit. I have been asked to be present and represent them. As currently constructed, this is part of the QMS, the planned arrangements.

 

[Marc]

Re: Consultant participation in audit - help, please

It's not unusual for a TS auditor to get confused between ISO and TS requirements. I even had an auditor doing an ISO audit point out a nonconformance and show me the passage in his TS standard. I produced my ISO standard and showed him he was reading the additional TS requirement, which made him back down. He said something like "Oh, well, all the ISO stuff is in here in TS 16949 so I never carry the ISO 9001 standard."

 

[Geoff Withnell]

Re: Consultant participation in audit - help, please

It's not unusual for a TS auditor to get confused between ISO and TS requirements. I even had an auditor doing an ISO audit point out a nonconformance and show me the passage in his TS standard. I produced my ISO standard and showed him he was reading the additional TS requirement, which made him back down. He said something like "Oh, well, all the ISO stuff is in here in TS 16949 so I never carry the ISO 9001 standard."

Great Googamuga! Audit planning 101 is plan the audit to the required standard. That guy was a complete waste of space and air, and should be reported to his parent organization. I would have been tempted to accept the nonconformance and then send in the corrective action as "requirement standard is not applicable" so his home office could see it.


Geoff Withnell