Consultant Participation in Registration Audit

[CliffK]

In an earlier thread here, many people opined that consultants can represent a company in internal audits. e.g. "you can outsource the whole quality system"

I agree with this position.

Unfortunately, I now need some support and references.

First, pointers to registrars that do not exclude consultants from registration audits. Please name names, as I will be contacting them.

Second, official statements that support this position. These could be pronouncements from ISO, ANAB, courts in the USA (I hate to go this far, but this is an important issue and IIRC it has actually been litigated).

Ironically, the auditor that wants to ban me from the audit has been consulting like crazy during the audit.

Thanks ever so...
Cliff Kachinske

 

[AndyN]

Re: Consultant participation in audit - help, please

Cliff:
I feel your pain.

Two registrars I have personal experience of in such a situation are LRQA and VCA. As far as I'm aware it's only TS that specifically mandates the exclusion (in the rules). Since you're ISO 9000, the registrar has no business excluding you if you've done the audits. I'm guessing that you haven't 'got in the mix' in other areas of the audit, to be seen to fend for the auditee.

Hey, if consultants were excluded, Excel Partnership Inc. would never have been registered by BVQI!

 

[Randy]

Re: Consultant participation in audit - help, please

I work for a minorlol registrar and we do not exclude consultants.

Check out my favorite website and you'll see who I'm referring to.

 

[Stijloor]

Re: Consultant participation in audit - help, please

In an earlier thread here, many people opined that consultants can represent a company in internal audits. e.g. "you can outsource the whole quality system"

I agree with this position.

Unfortunately, I now need some support and references.

First, pointers to registrars that do not exclude consultants from registration audits. Please name names, as I will be contacting them.

Second, official statements that support this position. These could be pronouncements from ISO, ANAB, courts in the USA (I hate to go this far, but this is an important issue and IIRC it has actually been litigated).

Ironically, the auditor that wants to ban me from the audit has been consulting like crazy during the audit.

Thanks ever so...
Cliff Kachinske

Hello Cliff,

What is your Client's position in all this? If they hire you to guide the QMS development and implementation process, including supporting them during the audit, then your Client should step up to the plate and make their position clear to the Auditor and the Registrar s/he represents. It looks more like a turf war to me.... Not good and nobody wins. Andy is correct in stating that only IATF rules forbid consultants to be present during the audit.

Other Covers will respond I'm sure.

Stijloor.

 

[CliffK]

Re: Consultant participation in audit - help, please

Hello Cliff,

What is your Client's position in all this? If they hire you to guide the QMS development and implementation process, including supporting them during the audit, then your Client should step up to the plate and make their position clear to the Auditor and the Registrar s/he represents. It looks more like a turf war to me.... Not good and nobody wins. Andy is correct in stating that only IATF rules forbid consultants to be present during the audit.
Stijloor.

Ouch, turf war. That one could leave a mark.

Okay, I can see how it would seem like that. Actually, though, I have been hired in great part because a majority of the company's management team feels like the auditor is trying to run the company. I see their point completely.

Part of the problem is this auditor has them somewhat cowed. Peers at the management rep over glasses perched on the end of his nose, drums his fingers on the table while they talk, clarifies his questions by repeating the same words again - stuff like that.

 

[CliffK]

Re: Consultant participation in audit - help, please

Cliff:
I feel your pain.

Two registrars I have personal experience of in such a situation are LRQA and VCA. As far as I'm aware it's only TS that specifically mandates the exclusion (in the rules). Since you're ISO 9000, the registrar has no business excluding you if you've done the audits. I'm guessing that you haven't 'got in the mix' in other areas of the audit, to be seen to fend for the auditee.

Hey, if consultants were excluded, Excel Partnership Inc. would never have been registered by BVQI!

Well, I feel my pain, too. But thanks for the empathy.

Actually, I have gotten in the mix, as you will see in my reply to Stijloor.

 

[CliffK]

Re: Consultant participation in audit - help, please

I work for a minorlol registrar and we do not exclude consultants.

Check out my favorite website and you'll see who I'm referring to.

Good chance I'll be in touch.

It's the chemical industry. I forget the SIC right off hand. Manufacture of additives for plastic and rubber.

 

[Sidney Vianna]

Re: Consultant participation in audit - help, please

If a CB were to demand a consultant to leave the premises (outside of a TS audit) they would be inviting a lawsuit for restriction of trade. It has happened.
On the other hand, it is accepted protocol that, during the course of a management system audit, if a consultant is present, s/he should not interfere with the audit, by, e.g., answering questions on behalf of the auditee. Good consultants understand and realize that the organization must have ownership of the system, so they refrain from active participation in an audit, unless they are working in a capacity that is part of the system being audited, for example, being the management representative, an internal auditor, the CEO, etc...

 

[CliffK]

Re: Consultant participation in audit - help, please

If a CB were to demand a consultant to leave the premises (outside of a TS audit) they would be inviting a lawsuit for restriction of trade. It has happened.
On the other hand, it is accepted protocol that, during the course of a management system audit, if a consultant is present, s/he should not interfere with the audit, by, e.g., answering questions on behalf of the auditee. Good consultants understand and realize that the organization must have ownership of the system, so they refrain from active participation in an audit, unless they are working in a capacity that is part of the system being audited, for example, being the management representative, an internal auditor, the CEO, etc...

Your tag line says it all - organizational dysfunction.

The dysfunction in question is that the organization does not have ownership of the system. They are trying very hard to wrest ownership away from this auditor.

The first meeting with this company, the CEO asked if I was the hit man, come to put them out of their ISO misery.

However, you raise a good point. It probably would have been better to formalize/document our relationship. Thank you very much. Assuming this organization stays with this registrar, we'll have that particular duck in its row.

 

[Helmut Jilling]

Re: Consultant participation in audit - help, please

Hello Cliff,

What is your Client's position in all this? If they hire you to guide the QMS development and implementation process, including supporting them during the audit, then your Client should step up to the plate and make their position clear to the Auditor and the Registrar s/he represents. It looks more like a turf war to me.... Not good and nobody wins. Andy is correct in stating that only IATF rules forbid consultants to be present during the audit.

Other Covers will respond I'm sure.

Stijloor.

Let's clarify the above comment. IATF Rules say

" 4.1 - Consultants to the organization cannot participate in the audit." However, they may be present to observe, and frequently are.

Sidney explained it well. They should allow the organization to answer the questions. There is no harm in them being an observer, however. There is no need or benefit to create a hostile environment - we are all working for the same goals, after all.