Consultant Person who implemented ALSO the Registrar Auditor?

E

electronicsak

#1
Hello,
I'm hoping someone can help me find exact ISO 9001:2008 language/standard information that states the person who implements an ISO system cannot also be the registrar. I have a situation where we hired a company to implement our entire system. They then had a second company do an external audit and issue our certificate. The main problem is that it was the SAME PERSON who did both the consultant and auditing (he worked for both companies??). Thanks for your help.
 
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#2
Re: Consultant/person who implemented ALSO the registrar?

That?s exactly what should not happen, because there?s no way to guarantee impartiality.
 
E

electronicsak

#3
Re: Consultant/person who implemented ALSO the registrar?

Is there somewhere in the standard or within ISO that I can be referred to? I need to know exactly where they discuss impartiality/conflict of interest.
 
#4
Re: Consultant/person who implemented ALSO the registrar?

Hello,
I'm hoping someone can help me find exact ISO 9001:2008 language/standard information that states the person who implements an ISO system cannot also be the registrar. I have a situation where we hired a company to implement our entire system. They then had a second company do an external audit and issue our certificate. The main problem is that it was the SAME PERSON who did both the consultant and auditing (he worked for both companies??). Thanks for your help.
It doesn't - because ISO 9001 has NOTHING to do with certification of the QMS. What you are seeking is in ISO/IEC 17021. Unless the CB is accredited under the IAF, compliance to ISO/IEC17021, then all bets are off!
 
P

pldey42

#5
Re: Consultant/person who implemented ALSO the registrar?

Registrars (or over here in the UK, "Certification Bodies", CBs) are either accredited or not, by an Accreditation Body (an AB).

In the UK our AB is UKAS; in the USA it's ANAB. They exist in over a hundred other countries, but not all.

The AB audits the Registrar (or CB) from time to time against, not ISO 9001, but ISO 17021. ISO 17021 says, essentially, that the registrar or CB must never get into the conflict of interest you describe. If the Registrar or CB continues to pass audits, they are "accredited" and the AB keeps a list of accredited registrars on its website.

Here's ANAB:

http://www.anab.org/certification-bodies.aspx

Some registrars aren't accredited.

If your registrar is accredited you can complain about the conflict of interest to the AB. They will probably ask you to complain to the registrar first.

Well, that's how it's supposed to work. Mileage varies. Bare-faced conflict of interest like this though is very, very rare in my experience of the accredited audit world.

If your registrar is not accredited you're on your own.

Hope this helps,
Pat
 
E

electronicsak

#6
Thank you for the replies. It says they are accredited by both IAF and IAC. Our certificate specifically says IAC.
 
P

pldey42

#7
I should add that splitting the consultancy and the registrar audit amongst two separate companies isn't enough.

The registrar has to make sure the auditor personally isn't in a conflict of interest. That too is in ISO 17021. (When I worked with a major CB the period for which I would not have been allowed to audit a client from my previous consulting job was two years, enough to avoid conflict of interest.)

There are consulting companies that split consulting and auditing amongst two separate legal entities, of which just the auditing entity is accredited. They are careful, I'm told, not to send the same person to the same client. I suppose it could be a mistake on their part. Or maybe they employ two people by the name of John Smith?

Sorry, I don't have a copy of ISO 17021 to hand, so I can't refer you to the clause numbers. You can buy it from your local standards institution, e.g. BSI or ANSI.

Hope this helps, and good luck,
Pat
 
P

pldey42

#8
Thank you for the replies. It says they are accredited by both IAF and IAC. Our certificate specifically says IAC.
Go back to source and check. Certificates can be forged. I'm not even sure IAF do accreditations, don't think they do. Don't know who IAC are. Some unaccredited outfits are good at, how can I put it, deception?

Pat
 
E

electronicsak

#10
We ended our contract with this company due to this deception and conflict of interest and are now certified through a well known company. The problem is this first company now has attorneys after us trying to get money for the years we were supposed to stay certified with them. Just trying to see what I can do.
 
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