Containment Actions for NCRs (AS9100 C) that are not Product related

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bobbelden

#1
Hi, We recenty went though are AS9100 rev C transistion audit and we have several NCRs that are not product related. I am struggling for containment action. Some of the non-conformances deal with not having our CMM manufacturer on our registrar of suppliers. Not logging and tracking Corrective actions. No action plan inplace to improve customer satisfaction. If product were involved I'd be checking shipment records, work inprocess, stock. I need some food for thought to get me out of my box. Thanks Bob:cool:
 
Elsmar Forum Sponsor
#2
Re: Containment actions for NCRs that are not product related

Hi, We recently went though are AS9100 rev C transition audit and we have several NCRs that are not product related. I am struggling for containment action. Some of the non-conformances deal with not having our CMM manufacturer on our register of suppliers. Not logging and tracking Corrective actions. No action plan inplace to improve customer satisfaction. If product were involved I'd be checking shipment records, work inprocess, stock. I need some food for thought to get me out of my box. Thanks Bob:cool:
Where's the shall these ncs are reported against? It seems to me the auditor(s) got a little 'creative'...

How were the ncs worded? (exactly, but sanitized)
 

Golfman25

Trusted Information Resource
#3
Re: Containment Actions for NCRs that are not Product related

I would suggest that containment actions are not necessarily required. Of course, you could go extreme and stop using your CMM cause the vendor wasn't listed or stop collecting corrective action requests, etc. Good luck.
 

Stijloor

Staff member
Super Moderator
#4
Re: Containment actions for NCRs that are not product related

Where's the shall these ncs are reported against? It seems to me the auditor(s) got a little 'creative'...

How were the ncs worded? (exactly, but sanitized)
:topic:

Good points, but often organizations get in trouble for violating their own rules. In an effort to do good or look good, things are written in documents that do not add much value, but allow an auditor to write an NC when that stuff is not complied with.

The one that always gets me is the famous blurb in a quality policy: "Meet and Exceed Customer Requirements." Companies have serious difficulty demonstrating how they "exceed." :mg:

Stijloor.
 
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B

bobbelden

#5
Re: Containment actions for NCRs that are not product related

Where's the shall these ncs are reported against? It seems to me the auditor(s) got a little 'creative'...

How were the ncs worded? (exactly, but sanitized)
here are two example word for word.

Section 7.4.1 of As9100C states “The organization shall a) maintain a register of its suppliers that includes approval status (e.g., approved, conditional, disapproved) and the scope of the approval (e.g., product type, process family)”. 1)The following Calibration Houses were used without being on the ASL: FARO, Starrett and PIC. 2)The Current ASL QPF7.44 does not include the scope of approvals for many of the suppliers listed. Example; A&A Aerospace, Bodycote, C&H Hydraulics, B/E Aerospace.

Section 8.2.1 “Customer Satisfaction” of AS9100C states “As one of the measurements of the performance of the quality management system, the organization shall monitor information relating to customer perception as to whether the organization has met customer requirements. The methods for obtaining and using this information shall be determined. Information to be monitored and used for the evaluation of customer satisfaction shall include, but is not limited to, product conformity, on-time delivery performance, customer complaints and corrective action requests. Organizations shall develop and implement plans for customer satisfaction improvement that address deficiencies identified by these evaluations, and assess the effectiveness of the results.” Actions not in place to address customers’ none met expectations. 1) >=4 average score resulted from Customer Satisfaction Surveys OTD average from all of the survey received is 2.2 out of 5 Quality Average from all of the surveys received is 3.8 out of 5 2) Customer Score Cards: a) Boeing Performance Report Ending 31-Dec 2011 (Composite Rating): Quality 99.55% (Bronze), Delivery 69.33% (Red). b) CPI Aero Supplier Performance Report for the third Quarter of 2011: Quality (99%), Delivery (52%) c) Arnprior Aerospace Inc score card dated Dec 2011: Quality-12 months rolling Avg is 65.31%, 3 months 51.22% Delivery-12 months rolling Avg is
92.70%, 3 months 88.60%. BOTH ARE IN THE RED ZONE AND THE CUSTOMER REQUIRES A CORRECTIVE ACTION HOWEVER A CORRECTIVE ACTION COULD NOT BE PROVIDED. Objective evidence could not be provided to demonstrate that an action plan addressing the root causes, corrections and what is planned to improve or eliminate the deficiencies. Also a corrective action in response to Arnprior requirement was not in place.
 

Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Staff member
Admin
#6
Re: Containment Actions for NCRs that are not Product related

Containment is not ALWAYS required. AS9101D 4.2.2.5 stipulates:
When nonconformities are identified, the audit team shall categorize the nonconformity as ‘major’ or ’minor’, according to the definitions provided in this standard. The need for containment in accordance with the organization’s corrective action process shall be reviewed by the audit team.
 

dsanabria

Quite Involved in Discussions
#7
Re: Containment actions for NCRs that are not product related

:topic:

Good points, but often organizations get in trouble for violating their own rules. In an effort to do good or look good, things are written in documents that do not add much value, but allow an auditor to write an NC when that stuff is not complied with.

The one that always gets me is the famous blurb in a quality policy: "Meet and Exceed Customer Requirements." Companies have serious difficulty demonstrating how they "exceed." :mg:

Stijloor.
Actually "exceeding" requirements are easily done - and I tell customer / suppliers that it is measurable. For example - if the requirements are written on the Purchase Order or Print - they could easily exceed them. Perfect example - they want their product tomorrow but you given the product today - BINGO - you have exceeded the requirements of the Purchase order or.. They want a surface finish of 64 but you give them a 32 surface finish - BINGO - you have exceeded the requirements.

NOW...what I take issue is when they write down that they meet and EXCEED the customer EXPECTATION.

Very subjective and not able to verify what are the customers expectations are.

In fact, I tell them that the customer expectation is to receive the product yesterday, free of charge and with a US 20.00 bill with each part - then you have begun the process of exceeding expectation ... but wait - the customer will once again change their mind about expectations because it is not written down on the Purchase Order.

Thus - you could exceed requirement if they are written down but you could never exceed expectations.
 

Big Jim

Trusted Information Resource
#8
Re: Containment Actions for NCRs that are not Product related

Hi, We recenty went though are AS9100 rev C transistion audit and we have several NCRs that are not product related. I am struggling for containment action. Some of the non-conformances deal with not having our CMM manufacturer on our registrar of suppliers. Not logging and tracking Corrective actions. No action plan inplace to improve customer satisfaction. If product were involved I'd be checking shipment records, work inprocess, stock. I need some food for thought to get me out of my box. Thanks Bob:cool:

Your perception as to what containment entails may be a little narrow, especially if you are thinking containment only applies to product.

AS9101D in the NCR form and the instructions for how to fill it out may shed some light on this.

Field 16:
16 Containment Action(s), including correction, with supporting completion date(s):

Note "including correction".

Correction is defined in ISO 9000 as the action to overcome a nonconformance. Compare that ISO 9000 definition for corrective action as the action to overcome the CAUSE of a nonconformance.

Correction is the term used my many Certification Bodies in their own audit NCR forms for other standards and even for AS9100 before the use of the specific one in AS9101D became prescriptive.

To get a clearer understanding of correction, I suggest you read the ANAB Head's Up 137 which can be found on the ANAB web site.

The NCRs you posted certainly look like correction as well as corrective actions are needed, but that's only my opinion.

For additional reference, the instructions for filling out field 16, which provides additional insight on "correction", are as follows:

When the nature of the nonconformity needs immediate containment action, the auditee shall describe the immediate actions (‘fix now’) taken to contain the nonconforming situation/conditions and to control any identified nonconforming products. Correction shall always be recorded.
NOTE: Any immediate containment action and correction can be reviewed by the audit team during the audit.
 
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dsanabria

Quite Involved in Discussions
#9
Re: Containment Actions for NCRs that are not Product related

Hi, We recenty went though are AS9100 rev C transistion audit and we have several NCRs that are not product related. I am struggling for containment action. Some of the non-conformances deal with not having our CMM manufacturer on our registrar of suppliers. Not logging and tracking Corrective actions. No action plan inplace to improve customer satisfaction. If product were involved I'd be checking shipment records, work inprocess, stock. I need some food for thought to get me out of my box. Thanks Bob:cool:
You should ask the registrar to help you with the write ups. It looks like the auditor took some liberties and the registrar should be aware of it. Who knows, the auditor is incorporating the same thinking on other auditee.

Remember: AS9101 D

4.2.2.5 - NOTE 3: If there is no evidence of non-fulfillment of a requirement, the auditor cannot issue a nonconformity.
 
C

Chris_Anderson

#10
Re: Containment Actions for NCRs that are not Product related

Hi, We recenty went though are AS9100 rev C transistion audit and we have several NCRs that are not product related. I am struggling for containment action. Some of the non-conformances deal with not having our CMM manufacturer on our registrar of suppliers. Not logging and tracking Corrective actions. No action plan inplace to improve customer satisfaction. If product were involved I'd be checking shipment records, work inprocess, stock. I need some food for thought to get me out of my box. Thanks Bob:cool:
It's ok to compare this to product to understand what to do. A CMM manufacturer not on the registrar of suppliers is like a measuring device that is not on the calibration list. What would you do? You would have to contain or analyze the impact of using an uncalibrated device. Similarly, you need to evaluate the supplier for approval and then analyze your purchases from this vender to understand the impact of those purchases. You should consider red tagging or not using CMM equipment until this evaluation is complete.

The scope requirement is something that is not required for ISO 9001:2008. What I have done is use the scope from either the suppliers registration or the customers approved supplier list (i.e. what Boeing has approve them for). If these don't exist then you would list the scope from the evaluation/audit you used to approve an unregistered supplier.

Not logging and tracking Corrective actions is related to No action plan inplace to improve customer satisfaction. These sound like a broken system or major nonconformance. Should you contain the whole system? Is it really working? If customer satisfaction is low and there are no actions being taken then this is serious, right? It is like not recording manufacturing defects that have occurred. What would you do? Because you are required to record nonconforming product and in this case you are required by the customer to take corrective action. It was a little unclear but the finding sounded like no corrective action has been taken/started.
 
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