Control of External Documents - How does one *gain* control of external documents?

[jmp4429]

I am really struggling with control of external documents. To begin with, how does one *gain* control of external documents that are running amok throughout the organization? And then how does one maintain control? I realize it has to been done, but being asked to do it seems like some kind of a sick joke.

I just overheard someone saying they had gotten the budget approval to buy a few copies of the TS 16949 standard, and I had to interrupt the conversation to say “No, no, how many copies do you need? I’ll sign you out some controlled copies from my stash!”

What is supposed to stop people from obtaining their own external documents that aren’t controlled? Just trying to keep track of the ones I *know* about is like trying to collect ants with chopsticks. You know nobody’s going to come to me for a document number and a controlled stamp every time they get a manual or other document that should be controlled.

Is this something you just write a procedure for, pay lip service to, and don’t really do very well?

 

[Jeff Frost]

Within my organization when we first started our ISO certification process in 1995 we went throughout the company and collected a list and location of all public domain and customer documents and built a database of these document listing in-house revision and current revision.

After database was developed we next set up a library system using Access and then placed documents in binders created a central library and satellite libraries using a location and book number identification system. Once we had a hand on the documents we contracted with an outside documentation house to notify us when revisions had accrued so we could update library regarding current revision.

Our Access Library System can be accessed throughout the company via intranet and so far has worked very well. We only obtain current revision of documents when there is a need. Because we have customer mandated requirements our document control system is part of my organizations QMS operational procedures and everyone is trained on how the system works and who maintains the library (orders documents).

 

[Wes Bucey]

I wavered about moving this thread to another Forum which specifically aims at document control, but this topic is appropriate to working toward compliance to ISO Standards.

There are two issues which are paramount in dealing with outside documents:

1. Does the information in those documents affect any processes which go to making a part for a customer?
2. Do the workers rely on those documents instead of your own, controlled documents?

If the answer to either of those is YES, then you need to control the document. If not, they are just as meaningless as if your workers had Cosmopolitan or Newsweek laying around.

To be more specific, excess copies of TS16949 laying around are not likely to affect a customer's parts or service. TS16949 is not on a "need to know" basis. Having the document does not imply a worker will change a process according to his own interpretation of TS16949. For your part, you can make sure when a document actually under your control is revised, that you notify everyone in your plant (newsletter? memo?) that a new version is available and their old versions, if they have any, are now obsolete.

Overriding factor here:
Document Control is supposed to be an aid to a business operation, not a burden. If the document is not secret or completely antithetical to the way an operation is supposed to be performed, it doesn't make any difference if uncontrolled copies exist.

The important thing is to educate your workers to know the difference between casual documents and documents which apply to the organization's processes. Therefore, if an auditor comes along and spots a document without a control stamp and asks about it, the worker should say, "That is a casual document and has no bearing on what we use for our process. The only pertinent document is the one posted here at the machine, stamped controlled."

 

[jmp4429]

Okay, here's a few questions:

-If an auditor were to look at our external documents list and ask to see one that I can't track down, is that an NC?

-If we have obsolete editons of external documents still distributed and controlled, is that an NC?

-Would it behoove me to recall everyone's copy of a standard we don't use anymore, or is it OK that they remain controlle documents?

 

[Jim Wynne]

-If an auditor were to look at our external documents list and ask to see one that I can't track down, is that an NC?

Not necessarily--I think it would depend on the relevance of the document at the time of the audit. For example, if you listed ASTM B633 (for Zn plating) as a controlled external document, but you haven't actually had a need for it for the last two years, not being able to locate a copy might not be an issue. IMO, the burden of proof that the document isn't controlled is on the auditor, so long as your list references the current (ASTM) version of the document. (Note: I've had this situation come up with an external auditor, and successfully argued that the document in question was irrelevant to the functioning of the document control system.)

-If we have obsolete editons of external documents still distributed and controlled, is that an NC?

Yes. In fact, the fact that the documents are not the current versions is evidence that the documents are not controlled. "Control" is supposed to assure that only current versions are in use.

Would it behoove me to recall everyone's copy of a standard we don't use anymore, or is it OK that they remain controlle documents?

Note again that "control" assumes that current versions are in use, so if you maintain control, you also have to maintain currency. "In use" doesn't necessarily mean that the documents are actively being used in production, it means "currently under control." So if documents are marked (stamped, e.g.) as a method of identification, and you don't want to have to control them anymore, then they should be recalled, or the identification should be removed.

 

[Sidney Vianna]

Define obsolete

-If we have obsolete editons of external documents still distributed and controlled, is that an NC?

Probably, but keep in mind that, just because a document is not the LATEST revision, it does not make it necessarily obsolete. Many times, an older version of a standard or specification might be the appropriate version. Actually, it might be the CONTRACTUALLY specified version, and, using a newer version of the spec could lead to configuration management concerns.

 

[jmp4429]

Note again that "control" assumes that current versions are in use, so if you maintain control, you also have to maintain currency. "In use" doesn't necessarily mean that the documents are actively being used in production, it means "currently under control." So if documents are marked (stamped, e.g.) as a method of identification, and you don't want to have to control them anymore, then they should be recalled, or the identification should be removed.

Okay, here's what I'm not sure about. We transitioned a few years ago from QS to TS (posted here since document control is universal). Lots of people still have controlled copies of QS9000, which is a current revision of the document. We just don't use it anymore.

I would like to recall them, since we don't use them anymore and I don't feel like having them on my controlled documents list. I like things neat. If it's on my list, I want to know it's still in the plant somewhere and I could identify it if I came across it.

Others here don't want to recall them since it's a hassle for us and for those who have to find their old copy.

Do I need to recall the QS standards? Also, when QS is no longer accepted by the auto industry, the standard will still be the latest revision, but it will also be obsolete. Will I need to recall it then?

 

[Jim Wynne]

Okay, here's what I'm not sure about. We transitioned a few years ago from QS to TS (posted here since document control is universal). Lots of people still have controlled copies of QS9000, which is a current revision of the document. We just don't use it anymore.

I would like to recall them, since we don't use them anymore and I don't feel like having them on my controlled documents list. I like things neat. If it's on my list, I want to know it's still in the plant somewhere and I could identify it if I came across it.

Others here don't want to recall them since it's a hassle for us and for those who have to find their old copy.

Do I need to recall the QS standards? Also, when QS is no longer accepted by the auto industry, the standard will still be the latest revision, but it will also be obsolete. Will I need to recall it then?

Keep Sidney's response in this thread in mind--just because it's "obsolete" doesn't mean that it's not current in your system. If you have a customer drawing or PO that says to use version 1 of a standard, you're supposed to use version 1 until the customer says otherwise, even if the publisher of the standard is on version 27. "Obsolete" should be defined as being a version other than what you actually should be using, using either customer requirements or general industry practice as a guide. (General industry practice is that the most recent published version should be used unless otherwise specified.)
What you do with regard to gathering up copies of QS 9000 is a matter of personal preference; it should be removed from your "controlled" list if it's no longer relevant, then any outstanding copies become irrelevant. It might be a good exercise for your recall system though, to recall the copies and see how many actually surface.

 

[gdwaikle]

External Documents "out of control"

You need to assure the Notified Body auditor that you are using a current version of a standard, not an obsolete one; such as EN 46001 that many companies still reference in their documentation; as if it were current. In addition that the obsolete standars such as EN 46001 are collected and stamped or in some manner indicates it has been obsoleted. This is no different than an internal procedure that was up rev'd and the old Rev obsoleted.
If you have pretty good control of your external standards, in that you have identified those standards, regulations, etc that are pertinent to your organization and know what their current revisions are. You can keep up to date if you subscribe to a service that keeps you current by notifying you when changes are made and your external documents list is kept up, only having one standard that is not current would likely only be a minor non-conformity. (if you have the time to do the "research" of all the standards that affect your organization you don't need a service, otherwise you probably do) However If practically every document on your list is goofed up, you are showing lack of "control" and you will likely get a major nonconformity.
Only keep track of those external documents that are important to your organization. That will keep you from having to "control" extra documents that are of no help to your organization.

 

[Wes Bucey]

Probably, but keep in mind that, just because a document is not the LATEST revision, it does not make it necessarily obsolete. Many times, an older version of a standard or specification might be the appropriate version. Actually, it might be the CONTRACTUALLY specified version, and, using a newer version of the spec could lead to configuration management concerns.

Excellent point, Sidney!
It is up to the person or department controlling the documents to determine what is necessary for its operation, which includes conforming to customer specifications.