Control of Forms - Do forms need to be controlled?

[bobdoering]

Re: Do forms really need to be controlled?

Consider the audit questions:

How do you know that you have a form?

How do you know where to get a form, if you need one?

How do you know you are using the correct form revision?

These questions are generally what support controlling a form.

 

[Mike S.]

Re: Do forms really need to be controlled?

Many forms also work as de facto work instructions. In that case, definitely control them.

 

[SteelMaiden]

Re: Do forms really need to be controlled?

We were just tagged by an outside safety firm for needing signs in our CMM lab and quality office that stated they are not exit doors - mind you - this is an office INSIDE the plant - I just wondered how they got out of the lab.

We got that same "nonconformance" awhile back for a door to a restroom out in the plant. it happens.

 

[JaneB]

Re: Do forms really need to be controlled?

How do you know that you have a form?

How do you know where to get a form, if you need one?

How do you know you are using the correct form revision?

Good questions, but I'd add:

• What's the real purpose of this form? ie, who uses it when? is it just a minor work aid, or an important/critical part of a process?
• Does the filled-in form stand as a record in the system? If so, can the information on it be supplied/gathered a different way (eg, a customer order could be filled out by a sales person internally post a phone call OR the customer might fax it in & won't want to fill out your form!)
• How important is it to use the correct version of the form? And what would the impact be if not? (eg, insignificant or potentially big waste of time/money/client dissatisfaction etc)

 

[AndyN]

Re: Do forms really need to be controlled?

I have a slightly different take on this:-

If I own a company, the QMS is the way I want to manage it. I employ people to run/control processes and gather data on process performance etc., so I can tell if I'm getting what I planned. Based on that, I can ask my emplyees to correct or improve some aspect of the process.

In gathering data, I want to make certain (assure) that I'm getting the information I need, so it can be analyzed. Hence, just like any other qms document I provide to my people, I don't want people messing with them. Indeed, most recording activity is not being paid for by the customer, but I need it to run my company/make management decisions. Also, I don't want people getting creative and making 'new' forms etc. I only want them to spend the time necessary to record the data I need.

Conclusion? Forms must be controlled! It's a Management thing!

 

[AndyN]

Re: Do forms really need to be controlled?

Consider the audit questions:

How do you know that you have a form?

How do you know where to get a form, if you need one?

How do you know you are using the correct form revision?

These questions are generally what support controlling a form.

Bob - these aren't really the questions you'd ask of the person doing work, are they?:mg:

These might be the questions an external auditor might ask, but shouldn't we find out what's being recorded, why it is and what management is doing with the results? IMHO, we learn nothing of value asking this kind of 'document control' audit question. It's not fun, sexy or important to management - try the ones I propose!!

 

[tmoreau]

Re: Do forms really need to be controlled?

All good and interesting points.

Forms generating from multiple computer systems which, if something were to change, must each be edited separately, could be controlled via distribution list. Given that each incarnation will be visually different, would this be cause for alarm during a 3rd party audit?

If controlled as sovereign documents, revisions would not be controlled consistently.

 

[JaneB]

Re: Do forms really need to be controlled?

All good and interesting points.

Forms generating from multiple computer systems which, if something were to change, must each be edited separately, could be controlled via distribution list. Given that each incarnation will be visually different, would this be cause for alarm during a 3rd party audit?

If controlled as sovereign documents, revisions would not be controlled consistently.

Can you give some more information here? There's not much info supplied & from this little, I just don't have a 'handle' on what you are actually asking.

I'm utterly unable, for example, to give any kind of response to whether there might be 'alarm' at a third party audit without better understanding of the context. Can you supply a couple of specific examples - what kinds of forms, when & where used? And why are they generated from 'multiple computer systems'?

 

[JaneB]

Re: Do forms really need to be controlled?

If I own a company, the QMS is the way I want to manage it....
In gathering data, I want to make certain (assure) that I'm getting the information I need, so it can be analyzed. Hence, just like any other qms document I provide to my people, I don't want people messing with them. Indeed, most recording activity is not being paid for by the customer, but I need it to run my company/make management decisions. Also, I don't want people getting creative and making 'new' forms etc. I only want them to spend the time necessary to record the data I need.

Andy, I agree with you broadly speaking up to this point. But then, if it was my company, I'd know that they were very good forms (ie, well designed, user friendly as well as gathered all the info required consistently) and that we only had forms where they were really necessary. I'd also have 'trained' my people to understand that at times they could replace a form if the info came in a different format, provided they 'recorded' that in the system intelligently.

Conclusion? Forms must be controlled! It's a Management thing!

Here's where I don't agree 100% Many times, yes. But occasionally forms aren't actually terribly important and/or it's possible to gather the info in different ways (see examples earlier). But I quite see & agree with your point about not wanting people to spend time making up their own/duplicating effort. Hmm, perhaps I am largely agreeing with you.

I'd still rather focus on the importance and use of the form rather than say all & every form requires control IF this rule leads to over-work (in Australia, we say it's like "using a four by two to swat a fly" (a 4x2 = a piece of wood 4" x 2" - ie, much larger than required)

 

[Valeri]

Re: Do forms really need to be controlled?

(in Australia, we say it's like "using a four by two to swat a fly" (a 4x2 = a piece of wood 4" x 2" - ie, much larger than required)

I'm going to adopt this - much better than "making a mountain out of a molehill".