Control of Records retained outside ISO 9001 Scope

C

CindiM

#1
We have registered a portion of our business to ISO 9001. We have many records that are stored long term outside the scope of our registration. One example is city permits that we need to obtain. Our group has been actively debating how to identify these, or if we need to. Many do provide evidence of conformance to requirements. So far we have been saying these are outside the scope, and thus we do not need to identify. To further complicate the matter, many people keep copies of these records, at least short term, so they don't have to go into the larger systems to look them up.

Has anyone else dealt with a similar situation? Any feedback from ISO auditors or experts? Has anyone identified records as externally controlled, or dispositioned to another system?

Thanks!
 
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Randy

Super Moderator
#2
Re: Control of Records retained outside ISO Scope

Hey Welcome to the Cove:bigwave:



What do you mean they're outside of scope? Scope of what? Do you currently have a QMS?

Who requires you to keep these records?

If they are records, and if they are important to your business, and if you need to get your hands on them for some reason, then why wouldn't you want to manage them?

This isn't an ISO issue, it's a plain business issue.

We retain records for one purpose only....to show proof of whatever. If you may have to show proof in the future of something you did in the past then take the necessary steps to manage that information.

(David Crockett High original class of '69 and former William B. Travis Rebel)
 
C

CindiM

#3
Re: Control of Records retained outside ISO Scope

Hi Randy,

Thanks for your feedback.

We have defined the scope for ISO registration to only one area of the organization. Our formal QMS is rather new. We decided to create a master list for the records, and this is where the question came up. To many, it does not make sense to list records on this list that we do not store.

From my point of view, I would list everything that we need to keep to resonably show evidence of conformance. If it is for a short time, I'd reccomend a short dispostion policy. Others are of the opinion that something that we turn in to another part of the organization, or outside of the organization should not be listed.

(Heard of Crockett & Travis, but I'm new to area, names are all I know!)
 
P

pinpin - 2009

#4
Re: Control of Records retained outside ISO Scope

Can auditee simply says any records are outside the scope of certification, and therefore not manage them according to records control requirement in ISO/TS?

I find that it is very difficult to determine what are in and what are outside the scope, they are all interrelated! Many times people seem to trying to avoid responsibility by saying that they are outside the scope.

I think auditor shall raise an NC on this if those records are clearly related to the certification scope. Also, by managing all the records can then bring overall improvement to the organization, otherwise people simply blames ISO/TS for not giving us good results. I am one of the victim, people simply said implementing ISO/TS is merely customer requirements and for marketing purpose. I hate them! They don't seem to understand what they are talking about and do not hold responsibility in what they say.

Please correct me if I am wrong, thank you!

Randy, your view in this is appreciated!:thanks::thanx:
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#5
Re: Control of Records retained outside ISO Scope

We have registered a portion of our business to ISO 9001. We have many records that are stored long term outside the scope of our registration. One example is city permits that we need to obtain. Our group has been actively debating how to identify these, or if we need to. Many do provide evidence of conformance to requirements. So far we have been saying these are outside the scope, and thus we do not need to identify. To further complicate the matter, many people keep copies of these records, at least short term, so they don't have to go into the larger systems to look them up.

Has anyone else dealt with a similar situation? Any feedback from ISO auditors or experts? Has anyone identified records as externally controlled, or dispositioned to another system?

Thanks!
It's not really a problem. As Randy says, if you need, retain them.

The simplest approach is just list them and control them. No big deal.

A second simple solution may be a two page list - one page for the "in scope" records, and a second titled "Record Retention - Non-ISO records." Add a note to the list that says these are important records, but are technically outside the scope of our QMS.
 
F

fuzzy

#6
Re: Control of Records retained outside ISO Scope

It's not really a problem. As Randy says, if you need, retain them.

The simplest approach is just list them and control them. No big deal.

A second simple solution may be a two page list - one page for the "in scope" records, and a second titled "Record Retention - Non-ISO records." Add a note to the list that says these are important records, but are technically outside the scope of our QMS.
I agree with the advice offered to the OP:yes:. QR log can list the place where the one "official" record is located, and can specify a Minimum retention time. If the concern of multiple copies of certain records will expose your org. to NC for lack of control, then follow Helmut's advice: bring them into the document control system, but declare them "Out Of Scope", as I have considered EHS or Financial records in the past.
 
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