Control Plan Details vs. Operator Instruction Sheets - Document Contents

[Stubod]

Hi all,

Please could somebody offer some "hlep" regarding details required on a control plan if they already exist on a "controlled" work instruction sheet.

I have long believed that the Control plan is mainly used as an "index" to all the relevant control documentation used in the manufacturing process.

ie I would only list specifically custoemr key characteristics on the control plan, then refer to the relevant Operator Works instruction as a generic document.

ie a specific feature to be gauged would be listed on the instruction sheet with all relevant info, but would NOT necessarily appear on the control plan, 9Unless it was a custoemr significant characteristic).

The problem we have recently had with an audit is that we carry that much info on the control plan that is replicated on the instruction sheet, at times this information does not correlate...ie instruction sheet regularly updated ref frequency of check, and control plan not updated to reflect this.

ie I plan to remove all the "detail" from the control plan if it is already noted on the Instruction sheet....does this seem reasonable?

Many thanks for any input, and apologies for "long winded" question...

Stu

 

[Stijloor]

Re: Control Plan detail v Operator instruction sheets

Hi all,

Please could somebody offer some "help" regarding details required on a control plan if they already exist on a "controlled" work instruction sheet.

I have long believed that the Control plan is mainly used as an "index" to all the relevant control documentation used in the manufacturing process.

ie I would only list specifically customer key characteristics on the control plan, then refer to the relevant Operator Works instruction as a generic document.

ie a specific feature to be gauged would be listed on the instruction sheet with all relevant info, but would NOT necessarily appear on the control plan, unless it was a customer significant characteristic).

The problem we have recently had with an audit is that we carry that much info on the control plan that is replicated on the instruction sheet, at times this information does not correlate...ie instruction sheet regularly updated ref frequency of check, and control plan not updated to reflect this.

ie I plan to remove all the "detail" from the control plan if it is already noted on the Instruction sheet....does this seem reasonable?

Many thanks for any input, and apologies for "long winded" question...

Stu

You are correct. A Control Plan should be a summary of all process controls and should make appropriate references to supporting documents such as work instructions, set up instructions, etc. Information contained in work instructions does not need to be repeated in the Control Plan. Keep it simple.

Stijloor.

 

[qusys]

Re: Control Plan detail v Operator instruction sheets

Hi all,

Please could somebody offer some "hlep" regarding details required on a control plan if they already exist on a "controlled" work instruction sheet.

I have long believed that the Control plan is mainly used as an "index" to all the relevant control documentation used in the manufacturing process.

ie I would only list specifically custoemr key characteristics on the control plan, then refer to the relevant Operator Works instruction as a generic document.

ie a specific feature to be gauged would be listed on the instruction sheet with all relevant info, but would NOT necessarily appear on the control plan, 9Unless it was a custoemr significant characteristic).

The problem we have recently had with an audit is that we carry that much info on the control plan that is replicated on the instruction sheet, at times this information does not correlate...ie instruction sheet regularly updated ref frequency of check, and control plan not updated to reflect this.

ie I plan to remove all the "detail" from the control plan if it is already noted on the Instruction sheet....does this seem reasonable?

Many thanks for any input, and apologies for "long winded" question...

Stu

Hi,
the reference for Control plan contents is ISO TS Appendix A- Elements of the control plan.
I understand your issue. As a suggestion you should start from process flow chart, make P-FMEA and then align P-FMEA with your Control plan. Control Plan is not container where you put everything , otherwise this means you control nothing.
It is important to note that Control plan shall be done from incoming to shipping, through production line.

 

[Stubod]

Hi both,

..I really appreciate your speedy replies. You have confirmed my thoughts, so thanks very much for taking the time to respond...

Stu

 

[mjoakin]

Re: Control Plan detail v Operator instruction sheets

But I have a question on this. I'm having problems with my suppliers on this. The control plan should contain the specs and tolerances of the characteristic, or the number of the work instruction where those specs can be found. Now, I'm reviewing a supplier's PPAP, and I'm telling to my supplier that (one) he needs to write down the doc # where the spec can be found and (two) to approve the control plan I need to verify if the document called out as spec contains the correct specs. Now he tells me he can't provide me a copy since is a controlled document, but I'm welcomed to visit them. Now, I'm very far away from them, and a one-site review is expensive ... are they right? or they should give me access to that document via email or fax? you know? i'm not that interested on reviewing others persons documents, but my customer asked me to make sure my supplier system is ok.

 

[Jim Wynne]

Re: Control Plan detail v Operator instruction sheets

But I have a question on this. I'm having problems with my suppliers on this. The control plan should contain the specs and tolerances of the characteristic, or the number of the work instruction where those specs can be found. Now, I'm reviewing a supplier's PPAP, and I'm telling to my supplier that (one) he needs to write down the doc # where the spec can be found and (two) to approve the control plan I need to verify if the document called out as spec contains the correct specs. Now he tells me he can't provide me a copy since is a controlled document, but I'm welcomed to visit them. Now, I'm very far away from them, and a one-site review is expensive ... are they right? or they should give me access to that document via email or fax? you know? i'm not that interested on reviewing others persons documents, but my customer asked me to make sure my supplier system is ok.

A couple of thoughts come to mind. First the fact that the document in question is controlled is, or should be, irrelevant. Copies of controlled documents are distributed all over the place all the time. If he's saying that the documents contain proprietary information (e.g., trade secrets), that's a different story.

The other thing is to consider whether or not you really need to see the information. If so, draw the line: the PPAP won't be approved until it's complete. If not, don't worry about it. The supplier is saying, via the PPAP submission, that all of the requirements are understood, have been met (with regard to the PPAP production run) and will be in the future. Maybe that's all you need to know.

 

[mjoakin]

Re: Control Plan detail v Operator instruction sheets

A couple of thoughts come to mind. First the fact that the document in question is controlled is, or should be, irrelevant. Copies of controlled documents are distributed all over the place all the time. If he's saying that the documents contain proprietary information (e.g., trade secrets), that's a different story.

The other thing is to consider whether or not you really need to see the information. If so, draw the line: the PPAP won't be approved until it's complete. If not, don't worry about it. The supplier is saying, via the PPAP submission, that all of the requirements are understood, have been met (with regard to the PPAP production run) and will be in the future. Maybe that's all you need to know.

I know what you mean, but I think I may have to contact my customer on this, they want me to run a audit to my supplier, a Self Assessment Survey is the fastest and cheapest way to get it, my customer wants me to make sure everything is in order, I'll show supplier's excuses to see what happens. All I wanted to know is if I can "obligate" my supplier to submit the document I need, ever treathing him on go to his registrar because his policy on only show documents on site don't work for me ... you get me? I mean, if this is a special characteristic I need to make sure they have implemented the correct control, I'd really need to see it with myn own eyes. Not trying to be a bad guy here, just want to learn about what privileges, rights, etc I have as their customer. Honda yells at me and says I WANT IT NOW !!! ... can I say that to my supplier?

 

[Jim Wynne]

Re: Control Plan detail v Operator instruction sheets

I know what you mean, but I think I may have to contact my customer on this, they want me to run a audit to my supplier, a Self Assessment Survey is the fastest and cheapest way to get it, my customer wants me to make sure everything is in order, I'll show supplier's excuses to see what happens. All I wanted to know is if I can "obligate" my supplier to submit the document I need, ever treathing him on go to his registrar because his policy on only show documents on site don't work for me ... you get me? I mean, if this is a special characteristic I need to make sure they have implemented the correct control, I'd really need to see it with myn own eyes. Not trying to be a bad guy here, just want to learn about what privileges, rights, etc I have as their customer. Honda yells at me and says I WANT IT NOW !!! ... can I say that to my supplier?

I already said that if you want, you can tell the supplier that you won't approve the PPAP without all of the information you require. Requiring control plan specifics is not unreasonable at all. Reject the PPAP and put the ball back in the supplier's court.

 

[Stubod]

I am aware that control plans and FMEA's can be considered as intellectual property rights of the supplier using them. It is therefore not unreasonable for the supplier to stop this info going off site. We regularly use the customer to review these on site only and then they sign a sheet to say they have been reviewed....these then get added to the PPAP files....

 

[Jim Wynne]

I am aware that control plans and FMEA's can be considered as intellectual property rights of the supplier using them. It is therefore not unreasonable for the supplier to stop this info going off site. We regularly use the customer to review these on site only and then they sign a sheet to say they have been reviewed....these then get added to the PPAP files....

Although I'm familiar with suppliers claiming proprietary rights for PFMEAs, I've never personally heard of one who wouldn't share a control plan. I've always considered this odd because a control plan is more likely to contain sensitive information. In any event, unless the withholding of PPAP information was agreed to contractually, the obliged to divulge control methods in the PPAP.

In the present case, it's a matter of discussion and negotiation between the OP's company and its supplier. Customers usually have the upper hand in these things, but not always and there are times when some form of compromise is necessary.