Interesting Discussion Controlled Copy Stamp - Document Control

Stijloor

Staff member
Super Moderator
#11
Re: Control Of Documents: Controlled Copy - Controlled copy stamp

Hi friends, do we need to put a controlled copy stamp on our documents to differentiate between iso documents and non iso documents?

:thanks:
There is no such thing as "ISO Documents." You have documents that support the processes in your quality management system. You control those. Then, get rid of the rest. If they do not serve a purpose, your should not have them. :agree1:

Stijloor.
 
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Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#12
Re: Control Of Documents: Controlled Copy - Controlled copy stamp

You need to classify documents as controlled and uncontrolled.

A controlled document can be updated, amended, reviewed and approved prior to issuance and distribution to intended users or copyholders. Uncontrolled document is a copy of document distributed to whomever upon request for specific purpose (training., audit, etc). There are a lot of ways to distinguish controlled and uncontrolled e.g. stamping. If stamping works for you, so be it.
If you use it, post it, distribute it, it is beneficial to know the info is up to date and correct. You do that by controlling it. Controlling all the docs you use is much easier than controlling some and not others.
However, some docs are correct when you give them to someone, but you do not intend to continue to control them. It is helpful to have dates on them, but some people stamp that type uncontrolled to make the distinction clear.
 
D

DrM2u

#13
At the organization where I am now, I have a drawer full of stamps from my predecesor. I got REJECT, REFERENCE ONLY, OBSOLETE, ISSUED DOC CTRL, FOR REFERENCE ONLY, CONTROLLED, UNCONTROLLED, DOCUMENT CONTROL #, RECEIVED, etc. I also got about a dozen inking pads and ink refills of various collors, with red and blue the predominant ones. There is even a kit so I can make my own customized stamp if needed. I could not find any instructions as to what stamp and color combinations are supposed to be used for what occasion. All these were at one point in time related to document control. I wonder if the stamps were controlled too?!? :sarcasm: :lmao:
 

Proud Liberal

Quite Involved in Discussions
#14
:topic:

In addition to a red stamp, I also use a custom paper hole punch in the shape of a maple leaf. Even color copies of controlled documents don't have the punched out leaf.
 
S

savetheearth

#15
Hi friends, we have been using all these kinds of color-stamps but we find it did not help us at all but caused us to lose a lot of time and making mistakes.

We think 9001 only asked for prevention of "unintended" use ... Can we say that color stamp and "embossed" are for the prevention of "intended" fraud?

By recording the distribution and update recipients with changes and revisions, we think has meet the 9001. Will we get NC?

We think if people intentionally making unauthorized copies, it is hard to prevent. But we think "embossed" or more sophisticated means are required to prevent intended fraud.
 
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DrM2u

#16
We think 9001 only asked for prevention of "unintended" use ... Can we say that color stamp and "embossed" are for the prevention of "intended" fraud?
As you have already found out, stamps don't always work and certainly do not prevent the copying of controlled documents. A stamp, just like an emboss, is just a method of identifying the documents. By simple analogy, one could draw the conclusion that embossing will work just as good (or bad) ar stamps.
By recording the distribution and update recipients with changes and revisions, we think has meet the 9001. Will we get NC?
Have you consider other methods of controlling and distributing documents? (hint: there is no specific requirement that documents must be in hard-copy format). It is hard to tell if you will get a NC or not unless someone actually audits/assesses your document control system. The auditor will let you know his/her oppinion and you can agree or dispute it at that time. It would be incorrect for us to say YES or NO in behalf of the auditor.
We think if people intentionally making unauthorized copies, it is hard to prevent. But we think "embossed" or more sophisticated means are required to prevent intended fraud.
'Fraud' is a very strong word to use in relation to documentation. Are you sure it is 'fraud' or is it just people bypassing a cumbersome (ineffective and inefficient) system in order to get things done? According to Webster's Dictionary fraud is:
- "a: intentional perversion of truth in order to induce another to part with something of value or to surrender a legal right:
- "b : an act of deceiving or misrepresenting"
 

bobdoering

Stop X-bar/R Madness!!
Trusted Information Resource
#17
By simple analogy, one could draw the conclusion that embossing will work just as good (or bad) as stamps.
May not be a simple analogy, as a copy of an emboss is easier to detect than color copies of stamps. I would not recommend it, unless you have the situation the poster has, and needs to get the situation under control until such time the culture can be changed to utilize the system correctly.

It is hard to tell if you will get a NC or not unless someone actually audits/assesses your document control system. The auditor will let you know his/her opinion and you can agree or dispute it at that time. It would be incorrect for us to say YES or NO in behalf of the auditor.
I think it is fair to say that if an auditor finds in their sampling a document in use that is the incorrect revision, it is an NC. If they have the objective evidence, there is little to dispute, unfortunately.

'Fraud' is a very strong word to use in relation to documentation.
It may not infer precisely the correct meaning, but I am not adverse to the strength of the word. We can not assume that the system is cumbersome - there are people so adverse to change that they will expend more effort to circumvent an adequate system that utilize it. We would have to see the system to make that judgment.
 
D

DrM2u

#18
May not be a simple analogy, as a copy of an emboss is easier to detect than color copies of stamps. I would not recommend it, unless you have the situation the poster has, and needs to get the situation under control until such time the culture can be changed to utilize the system correctly.
There was a strong undertone of sarcasm in my reply. Trying to control an ineffective and inefficient system is a waste of time and resources. My suggestion for the OP is to re-evaluate if the system is indeed the best system that meets organization's needs. Of course, there is always the option of maintaining the status-quo if that is the organization's culture.
I think it is fair to say that if an auditor finds in their sampling a document in use that is the incorrect revision, it is an NC. If they have the objective evidence, there is little to dispute, unfortunately.
Agreed, the auditor could (not saying for sure though) very well issue a finding if there is evidence to support it. What remains to be decided by the auditor is the significance of the finding. Some registrars use Nonconformance for significant system failures and Areas of Concern for less significant ones. The category and criteria depends on the applicable standard. I stand that my previous statement that I cannot predict what the auditor will do for sure!
It may not infer precisely the correct meaning, but I am not adverse to the strength of the word. We can not assume that the system is cumbersome - there are people so adverse to change that they will expend more effort to circumvent an adequate system that utilize it. We would have to see the system to make that judgment.
A robust system should be efficient and effective, and should also prevent the unintended errors from occuring. If a system is bypassed then it is either not robust or the bypass is intentional. If the system is intentionally bypassed then either the system is cumbersome to the users or there is no system for accountability (rewards & punishment) within the organization for the ones 'resisting change'. My previous statement was only insinuating that the OP should re-visit the system to identify the root cause of failure.
 
S

savetheearth

#19
We may resort to the use of stamp or embosser to prevent intentional violation of our company rules on document control but we think the more appropriate one would be disciplinary action to deal with the persons committing such "crime".

To prevent unintentional use of obsolete documents as required by 9001, we make use of obsolete stamp in red color. As 9001 does not require the control of prevention of unauthorized copying, NC should not be issued unless such act actually led to the use of an obsolete copy, are we correct?

Unauthorized copying could lead to the use of obsolete document but such act without an objectibve evidence of the presence of an obsolete document being use should be an observation for us to take further action, are we correct?
 

bobdoering

Stop X-bar/R Madness!!
Trusted Information Resource
#20
The objective evidence of the use of an obsolete copy is the most likely to generate a finding. If it is possible to tell if a document in use is an uncontrolled copy, then there could be a finding for that, too.
 
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