Interesting Discussion Controlled Copy Stamp - Document Control

S

savetheearth

#41
ISO does not require you to stamp it at all, unless your procedure requires it. The document you give away would be accurate at the time you print it, but would be classed as an uncontrolled document going forward.
Could you explain the reason that this is classed as "uncontrolled"? :thanks:
 
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J

JaneB

#42
Could you explain the reason that this is classed as "uncontrolled"? :thanks:
A document you give away or send to someone and identify as uncontrolled has that status because you don't maintain it or keep it up to date (eg, notify them when a new version is released, send them the latest copy when it's changed etc).

So, it's current only when you supply it, and after that it may not be.
 
J

JaneB

#43
What is the the difference between a controlled and an uncontrolled document; and between a controlled and uncontrolled copy?


There are many documents besides the above, for instance are internal audit plan, work order and etc. We knew from many people that these were not stamped "controlled" like the above manual and procedures.
Whether or not you stamp something as 'controlled' isn't the issue. That's a way often used by many people to identify certain documents as ones that are controlled, but it isn't mandatory.

And these were mostly issued without recording its distribution. So are these documents become "uncontrolled"??
Whether you record the distribution is, again, an individual decision. You want to have some controls over distribution - whether you choose to have a list of all the copies is up to you. I don't usually advise my clients to do this, as it's rather tedious, and can be done in other ways, such as having electronic files only in a network folder that only authorised users can access for example.

Where there's only a single copy of a document and the document is rarely (if ever) updated, why would need to stamp them or record their distribution? Examples: a Work Order (one-off use, with a unique number) and an Audit Report (a one-off for that audit at that time).

"Uncontrolled" doc/copy lead to NC?
If there's a single document and it's a 'hiccup' rather than a pattern of failure in the system,no. If it's a pattern in the system, yes.

How about not to affix "obsolete" stamp on obsolete copy, but when you ask the users, they can tell you that is an obsolete one, and they know which is the current copy as they have been kept abreast with changes, and you found out that they are using correct one; in this scenario, do they still not conform to 4.2.3g?
I think they conform, provided that they can reliably demonstrate this on a number of different examples, with suitable records or evidence such as update notices, re-release notifications etc (as opposed to 'they just know').

We thought 4.2.3g does not mean obsolete copy shall be stamped "obsolete" while retained even though it has been a practice in the industries. We thought this is a good practice. As long as the revised and the obsolete have identification (i.e. revision number) instead of obsolete stamp, and the user can differentiate which is obsolete due to the revision, then there should be no uncontrolled copy and they have prevented the unintended use of obsolete doc. Are we correct?
YES! You've got it entirely right here. :applause:

Personally, I've got better things to do with my time than running around stamping Controlled or Uncontrolled or Obsolete on documents... but some people like to do it and some people think it's good practice. I just think it's overkill and ugly in most systems, but there are exceptions.
 
S

samsung

#44
There are many documents besides the above, for instance are internal audit plan, work order and etc. We knew from many people that these were not stamped "controlled" like the above manual and procedures. And these were mostly issued without recording its distribution. So are these documents become "uncontrolled"?? Like buterfly's drawing? "Uncontrolled" doc/copy lead to NC?
Let me presume the current discussion relates to the 'paper' form of documents else there would be no discussion at all.

There is certainly a difference between a 'document' and a 'record' and as such one has to treat them differently so far as 'controls' are concerned. Whilst the 'documents' need to be controlled in line with 4.2.3, the records have to be controlled per clause 4.2.4. The examples of Work Orders, Audit Plans etc. cited by you, are 'documents' as long as the jobs defined in them are under execution, else they are records which never become 'obsolete' the way the 'documents' do. Further, a 'work order', for example, may have different meaning (and thus different type of controls) for both the issuer as well as it's recipient.

There shouldn't be a question of any document being & found 'uncontrolled' at the 'point of use' as long as it is required by the QMS. It is either a 'controlled' document or an 'Obsolete' one (with suitable identification).

How about not to affix "obsolete" stamp on obsolete copy, but when you ask the users, they can tell you that is an obsolete one, and they know which is the current copy as they have been kept abreast with changes, and you found out that they are using correct one; in this scenario, do they still not conform to 4.2.3g?
What's the harm in tagging an 'obsolete' document an 'obsolete' one. I can't agree to your assertion that the people are able to distinguish between the 'current' and 'obsolete' ones based on the version numbers alone (?). Simply by looking at the version numbers, one can't tell for sure whether the document in use is current or not unless
(a) one is aware of the release of any new versions of the same document
(b) the 'obsolete' doc. is removed from the 'point of use'
(c) one has a razor sharp memory and has the version numbers of all the documents on his finger tips
(d) the 'obsolete' copy is marked so.

We thought 4.2.3g does not mean obsolete copy shall be stamped "obsolete" while retained even though it has been a practice in the industries. We thought this is a good practice. As long as the revised and the obsolete have identification (i.e. revision number) instead of obsolete stamp, and the user can differentiate which is obsolete due to the revision, then there should be no uncontrolled copy and they have prevented the unintended use of obsolete doc. Are we correct?
Again, the 'revision number', in itself, places no guarantee for a document being 'obsolete' (or 'current'). A revision number simply indicates that it's a revision of it's predecessor without any indication of being 'current' & relevant (or 'obsolete') even if it may have a date on it. Hence, a document with whatever version/ revision number on it, cannot be [/B] an 'obsolete' one unless proved otherwise.

And above all, the standard does require
g) to prevent the unintended use of obsolete documents, and to apply suitable identification to them if they are retained for any purpose.
 
J

JaneB

#45
Let What's the harm in tagging an 'obsolete' document an 'obsolete' one.
It's not a matter of whether there's any 'harm' in it (obviously there isn't) - it is a matter of whether it's suitable in the organisation and a valuable practice, or whether the desired result can be achieved in a different, perhaps more efficient way.

And above all, the standard does require.... "4.3.2g to prevent the unintended use of obsolete documents, and to apply suitable identification to them if they are retained for any purpose"
OK... but why 'above all'? I cannot accept at all this bit about it being 'above all'. If it really were 'above all' other considerations it would be listed very early on in the clause, not right at the end as the very last bit. Apply suitable identification... gee, you could stick them in a particular cupboard or bind into a coloured blue folder, for example, and have blue folder docs all be obsolete. You could just X through the title page. Or, presuming existing ones have version status on them, and there's a clear method of establishing which is current., anything earlier by defniition is obsolete.

I focus instead on the words in 4.2.3 that precede all those individual stipulations. That a documented procedure shall be established to define the controls needed.... etc. What is needed in one organisation is often quite different in another.

Look: all we're aiming to do achieve is for people to be able to know which is the current version. (I don't dispute that your methods work - I do dispute it/they are the ONLY ways and must be used in all cases. If it was... the Standard would state it. It doesn't.)

If the poster's existing system does enable that, and throws up no problems of out of date docs in use, I'd accept it as conforming. If it doesn't, I wouldn't. But it still doesn't mean they must run around stamping OBSOLETE or UNCONTROLLED on everything!
 
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S

savetheearth

#46
Let me presume the current discussion relates to the 'paper' form of documents else there would be no discussion at all.

Regardless of paper or softcopy, they are doc, all subject to different degree of controls, and may not required to be "controlled" at all...we think ! We think the most important one to control are those that could result in huge losses or impact if not the right version for use.


"There is certainly a difference between a 'document' and a 'record' and as such one has to treat them differently so far as 'controls' are concerned. Whilst the 'documents' need to be controlled in line with 4.2.3, the records have to be controlled per clause 4.2.4. The examples of Work Orders, Audit Plans etc. cited by you, are 'documents' as long as the jobs defined in them are under execution, else they are records which never become 'obsolete' the way the 'documents' do. Further, a 'work order', for example, may have different meaning (and thus different type of controls) for both the issuer as well as it's recipient.

There are differences but also have common characteristics and not so important to differentiate so much…we think. A doc can be a record "at the same time"....for example is the route card or work order that carries instruction of process steps and records of work activities carried out (i.e. who does what, when, where and qty of rejects, etc) when it flows thru work stations....). 9001 also states that record is a special kind of doc ! In fact we find that most of the requirements for 4.2.4 shall be applied to Doc too! Also when we change the data in the record, it should be subject to 4.2.3b and c too. 4.2.3d also applies to record when we need to refer...A doc is also a record of what you have done, for eg we prepared the audit plan, it serves as a record of our work effort (i.e. discussion, preparing...). In fact, NC shall be raised if a doc cannot be retrieved readily for use that cause nonconformity or give rise to effectiveness and efficiency issues, but it was confined in 4.2.4, ISO missed out this point? Or should we say that it was implied in 4.2.3d and e? Instead of saying a doc shall be available at points of use...and readily identifiable, why not requiring a practice of "the access of doc shall be in way to facilitate the work and enhance efficiency"?


There shouldn't be a question of any document being & found 'uncontrolled' at the 'point of use' as long as it is required by the QMS. It is either a 'controlled' document or an 'Obsolete' one (with suitable identification).

We do not agree to use the term "controlled doc", but do agree that all doc subject to different degree of controls or no need to control (e.g. issue a note to remind people to use what revision of doc but never need to tell people that our previous note is obsolete and issue a new note....someone may say then this is "uncontrolled" or no need to be controlled at all...???).


What's the harm in tagging an 'obsolete' document an 'obsolete' one. I can't agree to your assertion that the people are able to distinguish between the 'current' and 'obsolete' ones based on the version numbers alone (?). Simply by looking at the version numbers, one can't tell for sure whether the document in use is current or not unless
(a) one is aware of the release of any new versions of the same document
(b) the 'obsolete' doc. is removed from the 'point of use'
(c) one has a razor sharp memory and has the version numbers of all the documents on his finger tips
(d) the 'obsolete' copy is marked so.

We did say that to make people know what doc is the right version for use is to make use of your point (a). We do not require people to have razor sharp memory, but we expect people to be respecting the rule, if they are not sure of which version is the right one to use they shall ask! If they are unsure of the correct version and simply use it (be it obsolete or not, with or without "obsolete" stamp), that isn't the doc control system's fault but is the people's "intentional" violation act and relevant disciplinary action shall be taken!

Again, the 'revision number', in itself, places no guarantee for a document being 'obsolete' (or 'current'). A revision number simply indicates that it's a revision of it's predecessor without any indication of being 'current' & relevant (or 'obsolete') even if it may have a date on it. Hence, a document with whatever version/ revision number on it, cannot be [/B] an 'obsolete' one unless proved otherwise.

And above all, the standard does require


Again, we think there isn’t the need to apply other indication other than the doc’s version (number or date). However people said ISO say it is mandatory! We think it (4.2.3g) does not, it only requires us to define control but not saying we shall say “shall apply suitable identification”. We think it is alright to say “where possible should apply...” that is how we define controls, any violation to 9001? ISO does not say we shall define everything in our policy and proc to be ‘SHALL” ! Unless we are very very very sure of the thing to be controlled, otherwise we cannot impose “SHALL”, many areas in 9001 state “where appropriate”, too bad it does not say in 4.2.3, however JaneB said, 4.2.3 says to define the controls “needed”.

Lastly:
By giving away a drawing to someone which he does not use it for work also classified as "uncontrolled"? and this lead to NC? Or simply it does not require control and thus not require to be classified as "uncontrolled"...thus should not lead to NC at all…?

Giving away a drawing/spec to someone which he does use it for work but he was not informed of revision is an incidence of "not prevent the unintended use of obsolete doc", lead to an NC on 4.2.3g, we agree!

Should we say that we found a copy of "uncontrolled" doc, or say that we found an incidence of practice not controlling such doc to prevent ....”.?
 
S

samsung

#47


Again, we think there isn’t the need to apply other indication other than the doc’s version (number or date). However people said ISO say it is mandatory! We think it (4.2.3g) does not, it only requires us to define control but not saying we shall say “shall apply suitable identification”. We think it is alright to say “where possible should apply...” that is how we define controls, any violation to 9001? ISO does not say we shall define everything in our policy and proc to be ‘SHALL” ! Unless we are very very very sure of the thing to be controlled, otherwise we cannot impose “SHALL”, many areas in 9001 state “where appropriate”, too bad it does not say in 4.2.3, however JaneB said, 4.2.3 says to define the controls “needed”.

Lastly:
By giving away a drawing to someone which he does not use it for work also classified as "uncontrolled"? and this lead to NC? Or simply it does not require control and thus not require to be classified as "uncontrolled"...thus should not lead to NC at all…?

Giving away a drawing/spec to someone which he does use it for work but he was not informed of revision is an incidence of "not prevent the unintended use of obsolete doc", lead to an NC on 4.2.3g, we agree!

Should we say that we found a copy of "uncontrolled" doc, or say that we found an incidence of practice not controlling such doc to prevent ....”.?
Your policies, procedures, methods and logics; everything excellent and I can only wish that you continue with it. There's lot that others can also learn from.

Best wishes.
 
S

savetheearth

#49
:agree1:No, they should never because they have a 'more efficient' system already in place.

Thanks for discussion.
samsung is running out of patience with me, sorry that I am slow...

We asked all that auditing our systems to accept our views in order not to apply stamps but were told we shall...without convincing reasons. Therefore we come to Elsmar.... we found that many think the same!

Look like the world of ISO certified companies could not get rid of STAMPS!

So far seems like there has not been clear reply from auditors here. Please help! Or providing views here constitute the act of "consulting" and infringing auditor's rule?

So far any companies do not get NC when their rule is do not applying such stamp on hard copies but only control by recording issue and updating users with revision? Please help!:thanks:
 
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