Interesting Discussion Controlled Copy Stamp - Document Control

harry

Super Moderator
#51
Quote:
Originally Posted by JaneB


But it still doesn't mean they must run around stamping OBSOLETE or UNCONTROLLED on everything!
No, they should never because they have a 'more efficient' system already in place.

Thanks for discussion.
Note to users who may not be aware: When there is a 'quote' mark, it denotes that the user is responding to the post quoted and not others.
samsung is running out of patience with me, sorry that I am slow...
Why do you assume that? Samsung is responding to the post quoted, not yours.
 
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S

savetheearth

#52
Note to users who may not be aware: When there is a 'quote' mark, it denotes that the user is responding to the post quoted and not others.


Why do you assume that? Samsung is responding to the post quoted, not yours.

It doesn't matter, no assumption, samsung knows... :)

"Its a healthy discussion going on ... " ....WILL CONTINUE! But there is no reply from you to my questions Ajit, please help....:)
 

Ajit Basrur

Staff member
Admin
#53
It doesn't matter, no assumption, samsung knows... :)

"Its a healthy discussion going on ... " ....WILL CONTINUE! But there is no reply from you to my questions Ajit, please help....:)
This is weekend and usually the cove tends to be silent. Have patience - you will get responses.

Btw, I do not know what you mean when you say, "samsung knows". Sound bit odd so I request you to maintain professionalism when replying to posts. Thanks in advance :)
 
S

savetheearth

#55
Good, healthy discussion with professionalism, why "odd"? Did I not reply with professionalism? What we posted were our experience and what we were told, so that means those who told us are without professionalism?

We got these replies all the while when we were audited and when we asked for clarification. We look for answers to improve our works as we feel some practice that we were required to do were not seem to make sense and we were not given reasonable answers. We just want a system that make sense and good, not COSTLY with LITTLE benefits or no benefits at all.

Thanks to JaneB who has helped to provide me with good clarifications and which we think make sense, she was attentive to what we asked for. Thank you JaneB!!!:thanks:

Thank you too samsung and Ajit!
 
J

JaneB

#56
We asked all that auditing our systems to accept our views in order not to apply stamps but were told we shall...without convincing reasons.

Look like the world of ISO certified companies could not get rid of STAMPS!
OK - so it's a particular issue that your auditor/s has raised. (This would have been useful background information to have supplied earlier, by the way).

From what you say, it appears that you may have auditor/s who are accustomed to that system of stamping, and are wanting you to do it. Now this isn't permissible provided that your alternative method clearly meets the requirements of the standard. The only things that auditors can say is 'conforms to...' or 'doesn't conform to'. They cannot and must not require you to do things in specific ways!

Samsung raised some very good points, by the way. He's clearly partial to that system also, whereas I'm not as you've gathered. But don't ignore all his points because he makes a number of good ones.

Neither of us are 'on the spot'. We cannot examine your system, we're reliant only on what you say. But I would urge you to think carefully about how your system ensures that people DO know & can establish:
a/ which documents are controlled
b/ for any particular documents, its status (current or obsolete).
Also: how you prevent obsolete documents from unintended use. Because if an auditor has noted some weakness here, this may be why the problem. If there's no weakness at all, and they 'just want you' to do stampes, they're out of line.

For example, if you're
not applying such stamp on hard copies but only control by recording issue and updating users with revision?
That would meet the requirements of the Standard in my view, provided that if I/someone else doesn't find while auditing evidence that it isn't working. That might include some of these examples:
  • people being unable to identify to an auditor which is the current document
  • obsolete documents in use
  • a mixture of documents apparently in use, which require some effort to determine their status.
    Any of these would raise warning flags for me. And I might also start muttering about stamping obsolete documents.

    Questions:
    1. why are obsolete documents around? What purpose do they serve? Why not archive 'em away and avoid the whole problem? (which is what the Standard is aiming to achieve of course!)
    2. does your system make it clear which documents are under control?

    If you are sure your system meets the requirements (but you don't stamp), then I'd resist the NC, and take it up with the auditor's technical manager. Nothing, nothing, nothing in the Standard mandates stamping documents with 'Controlled' or 'Obsolete' or the like! Nothing! Those are simply specific methods of meeting the requirements, and not the only 'proper' ways.

    :agree1:No, they should never because they have a 'more efficient' system already in place.
    Thanks for discussion.
    Oops - I should also have said 'an alternative' system in place. It might not necessarily be a better one! Thank you too. :yes:

    PS I didn't and don't see any signs of anyone let alone Samsung who's also been trying to help, 'running out of patience' with you. :nope:
 
S

savetheearth

#57
Running out of patience with me was what I interpreted from those repeating "excellent system" replies. Yes, samsung has been very kind in sharing his knowledge, I appreciate very much! I said "running out of patience" because I used to experience this as people gradually do not answer further when I ask somemore, and I thought I was slow in understanding what people have answered. I apologize to samsung for this anyway!

My reply led to Ajit's "Professionalism" reminder caused me to read what I wrote, and actually those were what we got when we were audited. Telling the facts here led to that remarks made me feel bad! Ajit, could you enlighten me more specifically what I have said that are not "Professionalism"? Thank you Ajit!

However, I would like to say thank you for all the replies so far!!!

JaneB very patiently replied my questions, I deeply express my thanks!!!

I guessed I understood what the word "controlled document" mean now...regardless of whether there is a controlled stamp on it, it means a doc we shall control to ensure correct version are used. But there are really a lot! Route Card is one of them. We were told it "shall" and "should" be controlled with such stamp from different people auditing us. We are confused! But no matter what we want to be sure of the right thing to do!

But layman can't understand, layman only knows what doc they were told to use and what they were told has been obsolete. I was trying to think in a way to manage the system without "controlled" word, as all doc subject to different controls.

Instead of asking the user "is this doc current?". I think we should ask "are you using this doc for the work?".

They may or may not know the meaning of current but they shall be absolutely sure to answer they are or are not using that doc for their work (of course a better one should be that we shall find evidence that it was used for the work or not, rather than hearing what they say). If they use that pc of doc and we found it was not the right version to be used (which we shall verify with the person controlling its issue rather than the user), but there are 2 different versions at points of use for 2 different product orders, then this is a fault in the use of version instead of obsolete doc, but is this against 4.2.3g or else?

Can I assume that 4.2.3g not only meant for preventing the unintended use of obsolete doc but also applies to incorrect version?

Yes, we agree to apply Obsolete Stamp if obsolete doc retained for reference. But we only use it for drawing as using obsolete drawing lead to huge loss of material and money, but not for all the doc in the company.

Thank you to all!
 

Ajit Basrur

Staff member
Admin
#58
My reply led to Ajit's "Professionalism" reminder caused me to read what I wrote, and actually those were what we got when we were audited. Telling the facts here led to that remarks made me feel bad! Ajit, could you enlighten me more specifically what I have said that are not "Professionalism"? Thank you Ajit!
You have yourself answered your "professionalism"; you seem to be pick up the word "professionalism" alone and not picked the earlier part of that sentence. That referred to your saying samsung, "losing patience".

When I read your email and saw the past posts by samsung, I thought ... oh boy ... despite getting such excellant responses, why is my dear Malaysian friend, savetheearth, telling samsung of "losing patience"

Anyway, all seems to have resolved as you have clarified and samsung also replied back that he is still "active". This is an ideal situation for a Forum Administrator to keep the thread on track and everyone benefits from healthy discussions.
 
J

JaneB

#59
I guessed I understood what the word "controlled document" mean now...regardless of whether there is a controlled stamp on it, it means a doc we shall control to ensure correct version are used.
Yes. But beyond just version, it also needs the right content and someone with suitable authority needs to have authorised its use. (4.2.3a) and of course it must be identifiable (4.2.3e)

But there are really a lot!
There often are! That's why the Standard says your system documentation must include 'documents, including records, determined by the organization to be necessary to ensure the effective planning, operation and control of its processes' 4.2.1d. The responsibility is yours to work out what they are in your organisation.

And it then gives you specific instructions on what needs to be 'controlled' them (really, managing them) as 'Documents required by the quality management system' in 4.2.3.


Route Card is one of them. We were told it "shall" and "should" be controlled with such stamp from different people auditing us. We are confused!
I'd consider the 'master' copy/template of a Route Card as a document you control. If you change it/update it, you want to make sure you use the latest (revised) Route Card for all future jobs, surely? An individual Card is then created/issued for individual jobs (I assume) with specific instructions on it. It may / often is updated as it travels its route, gathering notes/signatures/whatever as it goes. And so once completed, it shows a history of a particular job. Now, I treat that Route Card as a record.
But layman can't understand, layman only knows what doc they were told to use and what they were told has been obsolete.
If by 'told' you mean purely verbal instructions, this may be a weakness. Memory is notoriously faulty! But if you mean 'told' as in a formal notification, accompanied by some kind of good practice like removing previous versions & replacing with the latest, that's fine.

Instead of asking the user "is this doc current?". I think we should ask "are you using this doc for the work?".
Yes, that's often a good way to go. The 'controlled doc' thing is a rather technical term that many people don't like at all! BUT if the answer to the question is Yes, the next question should be: And is it the latest version? (or current, up to date, whatever you like). And if that's Yes, any auditor will ask: How do you know that? And they (or you) better be able to give a reasonable answer. Another good question to ask is: If you are using it for work, what would the impact be if you were using an old/out of date/not current one?

Can I assume that 4.2.3g not only meant for preventing the unintended use ovf obsolete doc but also applies to incorrect version?
Yes. Same thing really.

using obsolete drawing lead to huge loss of material and money, but not for all the doc in the company.
Exactly. Wrong drawings = huge loss of material and $$. Which is why control is important in a quality system! But it doesn't mean every single little document has to be controlled to the Nth degree - using an old version of an Application for Leave form, for example, might be nothing more than a very minor inconvenience, with no impact to quality of product or service.
 
S

savetheearth

#60
JaneB you are really very patient and I must say lots of thank you for spending your precious time in giving such a detailed and clear explanation! :thanks::thanks::applause:
 
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