Controlled Forms - To what extent do forms need to be controlled?

SteelMaiden

Super Moderator
Super Moderator
#11
Good morning g,

Just one question, because I am not sure I understand what you are saying for sure...do you do formal training on filling out each form and document it (them) as a separate training class?

I apologize for sonetimes being a little dense..but this was one of those that the more often I re-read, the less I was sure of what I was reading.:confused:
 
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gpainter

Quite Involved in Discussions
#12
Yes, any controlled form has a formal trainig on how to fill out the form and retraining if there are any changes. This training is conducted by the originator of the form. Most of our forms are simple, as they should be.
 
L

Laura M

#13
But should they be assigned a number?

Today's dilemma.

Why assign forms a number? Most places I've been do. I've been correlating them to the instruction which explains how to fill out, or when to initiate, etc.

But should they have a number? Why not "Corrective Action Report" Rev date XX/X/XX? Or Supplier Survey, rev date....etc....etc.

I've inherited most of the systems I've worked with - all numbered, but starting from scratch, is there any reason to assign numbers?
 

Marc

Hunkered Down for the Duration with a Mask on...
Staff member
Admin
#14
Forms are no different than procedures. There is no requirement for a number.

One of the reasons I'm behind in finishing my 'Upgrading' package is my 'upgrade' clients so far have been companies I did the implementation for and they're small. Bigger companies are doing it internally and I'm talking to people is a few of them to find out how they're handling different aspects of the 'conversion'.

I'm looking at the manual of documents of one client right now. There are no document numbers or anything like that. All the documents (other than the lower level 'work instructions' - and in this case even most of them as well) are identified by disk file name and name. Forms are identifed in the same way - the disk file name.

When I set up client systems I tried to keep them away from structuring by numbers - which is why I've had such easy conversions. The only document set up along the 'standard' numbering and layout was/is the quality manual - which just points to the individual documents. No association. So - it's been rewrite Q Manual and insert correct references and massauge a few procedures and - it's done.

> Why not "Corrective Action Report" Rev date XX/X/XX? Or
> Supplier Survey, rev date....etc....etc.

Exactly. Numbering becomes more of an issue with lower lever 'work instructions' in larger companies. The larger the company, the more rigid the structure must be. I've had clients as big as 250 - 300 people in medium complex companies where the only 'numbered' documents were routers spit out by Mapix (one of many ERP type programs). Everything else was by name.

To 'help' auditors, I do suggest a matrix of these top level documents segregated by application in the standard. But that may be part of my experience 'hang over'. Many now just cite a directory listing of a protected directory as their 'master list' and use the Q manual as the pointer. Even when documentation is decentralized (another thing I preach), the top level procedure sets the limits - so each department has their own protected directory and are responsible for control of their own documents. Of course, the Q Manager is the 'Admin' and has top level access and can go through the over view with the auditor. The auditors will then check a few departments to ensure they're following guidelines (minimums) defined within the top level document control procedure.

If you would like to see an example of how I set up one company - where documents are defined by disk file name - not a number. Take a look at:

http://Elsmar.com/pdf_files/Doc_Matrix.pdf - A simple spreadsheet. If you look at the forms, they're identified by Disk File Name - Just as the procedures/flow charts are. However, their names alone was/is enough for most people.

You'll see there is a segregation by the standard numbering - but those numbers are not in the title. I wanted clients to have a list like this during their implementation so it would all make sense (can we all say Training Wheels?), but I didn't want them to link the procedures directly to the structure of the standard. This matrix, by the way, is from an early 1997 implementation.

The following quality manual 'tidbits' are relatively recent, but you can see how the QM ties everything together through references and notes.

qm-note-1.gif

and

qm-ref-1.gif

This quality manual even included the main required flow charts (procedures) within it. That was their idea, but it worked well, actually.

So.... What do ya think? Do you need numbers in your company - or not?
 

Marc

Hunkered Down for the Duration with a Mask on...
Staff member
Admin
#15
Originally posted by SteelMaiden

Just one question, because I am not sure I understand what you are saying for sure...do you do formal training on filling out each form and document it (them) as a separate training class?
I would think most forms would be taught during OJT as many are specific to an area. Even forms common to many departments, such as a nonconformance form. You'd have to have an awful complex, important form to hold a formal training class, I would think.

But again, it depends upon the form and the situation specifics. For example... If you're rolling out a whole new system with new forms - that would be a good reason for formal training. In that case, I would agree with the below comment:

> Yes, any controlled form has a formal trainig on how to
> fill out the form and retraining if there are any changes.
> This training is conducted by the originator of the form.

Typically, for established forms, I don't agree. Could be how we define the word formal when we are talking about training. Does the word formal imply a classroom and (possibly) a test? :confused:
 

gpainter

Quite Involved in Discussions
#16
Formal is generally a classroom training for a new form and for revisions can be 1 on 1. We started our registration effort in Dec. 99 and being document control coordinator have had only 3 changes to forms
We have tried to give our forms #s so they corespond to the system procedure eg. FM 03-01 this lets our people (very helpful to auditors) that this form is associated with System Procedure 03.
 

SteelMaiden

Super Moderator
Super Moderator
#17
g,

Thanks for clearing that up for me. I, like Marc, kind of take the path that forms are pretty self explantory (in our business), and we cover them in OJT. Some businesses do have very complex forms and I suppose formal training would be needed. Actually, I can think of some forms I've been asked to fill out in my life that could have used some explanation!:D


I always find it fascinating to hear what others are doing. I don't always use it, but it is another viewpoint to look at.
 

Marc

Hunkered Down for the Duration with a Mask on...
Staff member
Admin
#18
Originally posted by gpainter

Formal is generally a classroom training for a new form and for revisions can be 1 on 1. We started our registration effort in Dec. 99 and being document control coordinator have had only 3 changes to forms.

We have tried to give our forms #s so they corespond to the system procedure eg. FM 03-01 this lets our people (very helpful to auditors) that this form is associated with System Procedure 03.
I understand and don't have a problem with it.

I have seen so many different identification systems for documents in my life that I go for the simplest with respect to the company. In one company, all purchasing procedures were preceeded with a PUR- and then a number - and each department had their own prefix for their documents. Quality was QA-(number). I've also seen numbering systems so abstract that only familiarity over time would allow one to associate a number to a document.

My only point is that numbers are not required and in some cases are entirely unnecessary.
 
G

Greg Mack

#19
I agree with Marc whole-heartedly.

Numbers are only good for Auditors and Quality Heads. They serve no active or useful purpose for the end user.

I have found it so much easier to name our documents as the actual document name and more importantly - so has the people who need to access them.

We do have a simple identifier on the end of our documents but that is purely because our organisation has 19 Certified Business Units and the documentation is available in one location on each server around the country (Australia). :bigwave:
 
L

Laura M

#20
whatever works

I recently set up a system as Marc mentioned.
Engineering - EN-001, EN-002, etc.
Operations - OP-001
etc

At another location, forms were consecutively numbered, with no reference to any instruction. Those are being re-numbered,
W1501, then the form is F1501-1, F1501-2. For them with their system, it 10X easier than before.

But now starting from scratch, just today we decided, name and rev date. Correlate form to procedure on the master list and your done.

All depends on the personality of the company I guess, but thanks for the comments, they reaffirmed today's decision for me.

Laura
 
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