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Controlling Continuously Changing Forms

H

Hoeyster

#1
I have a form that continually changes, it is a tool settings chart. The set-up guys use the data in this form to set up the mills. The data in this form is a baseline to get them started. Once they dial in all the starting data, they tweak the mill to get it where they want to. Once they get the mill set to run they record new numbers into this form. The form is then turned in and the keeper of the form goes in and electronically changes the data.
This form is also used for different sizes of tubing, so the form will appear on 20 different mills.
I want to take this form off control and label it as a Reference Document. The VP of Mfg.'s interpretation is the form is controlled so that the format does not change. The format never changes but the data inside of it does on every set-up. According to our procedure everytime a controlled document changes it has to go through change control. A change control notice would have to be filled out after every set-up.

Does making this form a Reference Document make sense?
 
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F

fuzzy

#2
Re: Controlling Forms

I have a form that continually changes, it is a tool settings chart. The set-up guys use the data in this form to set up the mills. The data in this form is a baseline to get them started. Once they dial in all the starting data, they tweak the mill to get it where they want to. Once they get the mill set to run they record new numbers into this form. The form is then turned in and the keeper of the form goes in and electronically changes the data.
This form is also used for different sizes of tubing, so the form will appear on 20 different mills.
I want to take this form off control and label it as a Reference Document. The VP of Mfg.'s interpretation is the form is controlled so that the format does not change. The format never changes but the data inside of it does on every set-up. According to our procedure everytime a controlled document changes it has to go through change control. A change control notice would have to be filled out after every set-up.

Does making this form a Reference Document make sense?
I'm with your VP:agree1:....the controlled form is the format of the document; once it's filled in it becomes the record. The reference part could be the starting process parameters, but I would be clear on how my tolerances are set as your setpoints change, i.e. does tolerancing increase as setpoints increase, or does a fixed tolerance apply all the time.:2cents:
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#3
I have a form that continually changes, it is a tool settings chart. The set-up guys use the data in this form to set up the mills. The data in this form is a baseline to get them started. Once they dial in all the starting data, they tweak the mill to get it where they want to. Once they get the mill set to run they record new numbers into this form. The form is then turned in and the keeper of the form goes in and electronically changes the data.
This form is also used for different sizes of tubing, so the form will appear on 20 different mills.
I want to take this form off control and label it as a Reference Document. The VP of Mfg.'s interpretation is the form is controlled so that the format does not change. The format never changes but the data inside of it does on every set-up. According to our procedure everytime a controlled document changes it has to go through change control. A change control notice would have to be filled out after every set-up.

Does making this form a Reference Document make sense?
You should be controlling the form itself, and not its contents. Most forms will wind up with different information each time they're filled out. Think of the form as a container. You devise requirements for its size and shape, etc., and what may be put in it. The container is thus controlled. The basic nature of the container doesn't change when stuff gets put in it, though, so the control of the container isn't affected.
 
D

Daryl

#4
I agree with the others and your VP that it is the format of the form that you control; once filled out it is a record. I fell into this trap many years ago where we were trying document a machine setup and found, like you, that the settings changed each time...we then realized that we have to rely on the training of the operator to make sure this machine is setup correctly, we can't (and shouldn't) document the settings...we ended up documenting what settings should be taken/set and the operators keep records of these settings for each machine and each part (or family of part).

So my rule of thumb for a contiuoulsy changing form is to look to training.
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#5
I agree with the others and your VP that it is the format of the form that you control; once filled out it is a record. I fell into this trap many years ago where we were trying document a machine setup and found, like you, that the settings changed each time...we then realized that we have to rely on the training of the operator to make sure this machine is setup correctly, we can't (and shouldn't) document the settings...we ended up documenting what settings should be taken/set and the operators keep records of these settings for each machine and each part (or family of part).

So my rule of thumb for a contiuoulsy changing form is to look to training.

If they are recording the actual settings used in this setup, then this data becomes a record.

However, if the form instructs the setup people on what preset settings they should use as a beginning, then these sheets are documents. However, these presets should not change all the time either. If they are presets, they are showing what you have determined is the best starting point, and that should not change often.

And lastly, if you do have a form that must change frequently, consider controlling it electronically, by password, and save all the reviews and sign-offs.
 
V

vanputten

#6
Study the Deming Funnel Experiment to understand the problems with your organization's technique of modifying the target values based on the last run. There is a more important issue with the methodology than the conrtrol of the form.

Do a simple internet search using the term "Deming Funnel Experiment." Once you understand this principle, you will understand the ineffectivness of changing the document every time.
 

Stijloor

Staff member
Super Moderator
#8
You should be controlling the form itself, and not its contents. Most forms will wind up with different information each time they're filled out. Think of the form as a container. You devise requirements for its size and shape, etc., and what may be put in it. The container is thus controlled. The basic nature of the container doesn't change when stuff gets put in it, though, so the control of the container isn't affected.
Jim,

What's more important: package or contents?

Stijloor.
 

Stijloor

Staff member
Super Moderator
#10
The package, to someone who makes packages. :D

There is no need for containers if there's nothing to put in them, so you can't separate one from the other in terms of importance.
Great point!

Going back to the "forms"; I would be more concerned with the quality of the data/information contained in the forms than the form itself. But I also understand that structure and control of the form (electronic and/or hard copy) is necessary too.

Stijloor.
 
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