Definition Copy Exact - Committment to abide by a Process Control Plan without deviation

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#11
Re: Can anyone point me to some information on "Copy Exact!"

I ran a lot of manufacturing lines and I don't recall any changes in the control plan which were either ad hoc or temporary without a long and hard consideration of downstream ramifications, especially anything that might affect a customer (especially of custom-made goods versus proprietary off-the-shelf products.)

Well, not being omniscient, I've seen lots of situations where processes (not products, mind you) have been changed on the fly.

An example: A robotic system is used to spray adhesive on a plastic panel to which fabric is to be applied. The robot breaks down, and a shipment deadline is looming. A decision is made to take the sprayer out of the "hand" of the robot and put it into the hand of a human. The method is known to be efficacious, and was in use for years before the robot was installed, but not addressed in the control plan (an oversight, to be sure, but stuff happens).

Choices:
  • Do this "Copy Exact" thing and shut everything down and do the deviation paperwork, or ask for some sort of formal dispensation from the customer, which could take days.
  • Do what you need to do to get the customer good product, on time, and correct the control plan to allow for manual application of adhesive.
 
Elsmar Forum Sponsor
#12
Re: Can anyone point me to some information on "Copy Exact!"

A decision is made to take the sprayer out of the "hand" of the robot and put it into the hand of a human.
I know for a fact, via personal observation, that one major Japanese and one major U.S. auto manufacturer do this in their paint booths when the necessity arises due to robotic malfunction.
-Icy
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#13
Re: Can anyone point me to some information on "Copy Exact!"

I know for a fact, via personal observation, that one major Japanese and one major U.S. auto manufacturer do this in their paint booths when the necessity arises due to robotic malfunction.
-Icy
Yes, but in deference to good sense, substitution of manual processes for automated ones that break down is usually addressed in the control plan. My point was that sometimes control plans don't take into account all of the logical possibilities, and that's a failure of the APQP process, but it doesn't mean that it won't happen, or that people shouldn't be able to make reasonable decisions when it does.
 

Wes Bucey

Quite Involved in Discussions
#14
Re: Can anyone point me to some information on "Copy Exact!"

Well, not being omniscient, I've seen lots of situations where processes (not products, mind you) have been changed on the fly.

An example: A robotic system is used to spray adhesive on a plastic panel to which fabric is to be applied. The robot breaks down, and a shipment deadline is looming. A decision is made to take the sprayer out of the "hand" of the robot and put it into the hand of a human. The method is known to be efficacious, and was in use for years before the robot was installed, but not addressed in the control plan (an oversight, to be sure, but stuff happens).

Choices:
  • Do this "Copy Exact" thing and shut everything down and do the deviation paperwork, or ask for some sort of formal dispensation from the customer, which could take days.
  • Do what you need to do to get the customer good product, on time, and correct the control plan to allow for manual application of adhesive.
Certainly seems more like a case for working as a "partner" with a customer than resorting to subterfuge and lying. In fact, I have had breakdowns of equipment and even "force majeure" events which necessitated conversations with customers whether to delay shipment or to trust us to provide equivalent manufacture to make shipments on time. As much as I espoused Lean, we never ran so Lean we didn't have a cushion of time for a decision to take place.

Frankly, I never bothered to predict which way a customer would react in such a situation. The reality was we made it a point to be an integral partner with each customer so we were sure to get a factual explanation of pressures affecting the customer in making his decision.

Once we had a fluke breakdown in a CNC turning center. Repair was predicted to take two weeks (42 work shifts) - our machine supplier agreed to set up his showroom display model with our tooling and we ended up producing out of his showroom for nearly three weeks (24/7) - he loved it! His salesfolk brought prospective machine tool customers at all hours of the day and night to watch our product run perfectly on the machine. My operators reported to work at the showroom (each got his own key!) (This is just an extension of the auto repair "free loaner" when getting repairs.)

It was a real WIN-WIN - I got future discounts on new machines; machine supplier got customers and I cut a deal for him to bring tool customers to us to see products run on new machines as well as the repaired one and
our customer approved the whole deal in one 15 minute phone call after I arranged the deal wth the machine tool supplier in a phone call that began, "If my customer approves, could we . . . ?
 

ScottK

Not out of the crisis
Staff member
Super Moderator
#15
Re: Can anyone point me to some information on "Copy Exact!"

Well, not being omniscient, I've seen lots of situations where processes (not products, mind you) have been changed on the fly.

An example: A robotic system is used to spray adhesive on a plastic panel to which fabric is to be applied. The robot breaks down, and a shipment deadline is looming. A decision is made to take the sprayer out of the "hand" of the robot and put it into the hand of a human. The method is known to be efficacious, and was in use for years before the robot was installed, but not addressed in the control plan (an oversight, to be sure, but stuff happens).

Choices:
  • Do this "Copy Exact" thing and shut everything down and do the deviation paperwork, or ask for some sort of formal dispensation from the customer, which could take days.
  • Do what you need to do to get the customer good product, on time, and correct the control plan to allow for manual application of adhesive.
Apparently my customer has a training program for this Copy Exact! (please note the "!" ;) )
I am hoping that part of the training is recognizing Exact!ly what sort changes need to be communicated in the control plan.
It would be kind of silly to have to get approval to switch from a Sandvik boring tool to a Sumitomo.
 
B

Bill Ryan - 2007

#16
Re: Can anyone point me to some information on "Copy Exact!"

Just had a situation with a customer where the 5-Why Corrective Action was to add a Poka-Yoke between Machine Op #1 and #2. The SQE decided that it required a PPAP submission. She couldn't be here as the process improvement was put in place, so I asked her if I was to stop shipping until she could find time to approve the submission. The response was "Definately not!". I then asked her what the risk to her company was. She got a little huffy and finally gave me an email deviation until she could get the thing approved (still waiting - 5 days later).

This, obviously, deals with an inspection/verification enhancement - does that make it a process change? Perhaps and I don't really want to get into that argument. We increase inspection (sample size and/or frequency) all the time when we find, and contain, a nonconformance internally or even when told about something "externally". Do I change/update my Control Plan? Of course not. It's a temporary measure until we get things back under control. If my "as PPAP'd" Cpk value falls from the original 1.67 to 1.50 for a partion of a shift, am I going to call my customer? Of course not. I'm going to take care of businees per our NCM procedure. I PPAP a machined dimension with the tool at the "upper end" of the tolerance. As it wears, changing the PPAP'd mean, am I going to call my customer? Let's get somewhat down to Earth.

From what I'm reading, the majority are saying this is unacceptable.

(Sorry for the tone :truce: )
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#17
Re: Can anyone point me to some information on "Copy Exact!"

Certainly seems more like a case for working as a "partner" with a customer than resorting to subterfuge and lying. In fact, I have had breakdowns of equipment and even "force majeure" events which necessitated conversations with customers whether to delay shipment or to trust us to provide equivalent manufacture to make shipments on time. As much as I espoused Lean, we never ran so Lean we didn't have a cushion of time for a decision to take place.
Well, we don't all live in the perfect world you seem to be lucky enough to inhabit. Some of us have experienced working with customers who either take days--sometimes weeks--to make a decision, or customer representatives who can't be contacted for days on end, and no one else is able (or willing) to make a decision.

Frankly, I never bothered to predict which way a customer would react in such a situation. The reality was we made it a point to be an integral partner with each customer so we were sure to get a factual explanation of pressures affecting the customer in making his decision.
Again, I envy you, but on the planet where I live, sometimes uncomfortable (and sometimes unpredictable) stuff happens. Partnership smartnership--I, and a lot of people like me, don't have the luxury of choosing only "good" customers. Sometimes the customer is a hopeless jackass, and we have to deal with it. It doesn't help to pontificate about lovely ideals and "integral partners" when the alligators are nipping at your behind.
 

Wes Bucey

Quite Involved in Discussions
#18
Re: Can anyone point me to some information on "Copy Exact!"

Well, we don't all live in the perfect world you seem to be lucky enough to inhabit. Some of us have experienced working with customers who either take days--sometimes weeks--to make a decision, or customer representatives who can't be contacted for days on end, and no one else is able (or willing) to make a decision.



Again, I envy you, but on the planet where I live, sometimes uncomfortable (and sometimes unpredictable) stuff happens. Partnership smartnership--I, and a lot of people like me, don't have the luxury of choosing only "good" customers. Sometimes the customer is a hopeless jackass, and we have to deal with it. It doesn't help to pontificate about lovely ideals and "integral partners" when the alligators are nipping at your behind.
I didn't live in a "perfect world." Some of the folks who later became my good customers did start off as jerks. I simply dealt with all the issues in Contract Review. Just as customers can impose penalties for late delivery, suppliers can impose penalties for delayed responses, late payments, design changes in mid production, etc.

You are correct in one instance - I DID have the power and authority to select and reject customers. I didn't start with that power and authority, I had to earn it and maintain constant vigilance to keep it. I made it a point to completely understand my customer's requirements and help the customer understand that we would always be honest and proactive about any issue and that we, in turn, expected the customer to be honest and proactive in involving us when any issue arose.

A few days ago, we had a thread about "implied consent" - I consider those clauses unfair and unethical. I consider lying to a customer (for any reason) much more unethical. You may laugh and joke and make snide remarks about my "holier than thou" ethics and my style, but I really did walk the walk and I attest it was no harder and, in many cases, much easier than lying and shortcutting, hoping no one would catch me in my lie.

Many folks smirk about the Golden Rule, but I lived it. I treated my suppliers the way I wanted to be treated and I treated my customers the way I wanted to be treated. Most of all, I treated my employees the way I wanted to be treated. The best part is they all reciprocated.

If your organization thinks it's OK to lie to a customer, then they will lie to you as an employee. I really can show a boss (I was a C-level boss, so I speak their language) that it pays to deal "on the square" with customers, suppliers, and employees.
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#19
Re: Can anyone point me to some information on "Copy Exact!"

Sigh. My only point was that if there's a forest fire burning, and you come across some poor slob who got burned to a crisp because he was tied to a tree, it doesn't help to ask, "Why didn't he run?"
 
A

Ady12

#20
Re: Can anyone point me to some information on "Copy Exact!"

I am a SQE in the semiconductor environment,

Copy Exact - I have lived this for the past 7 years. It also shortned to CE!

The ! is for fear.

I am usure to quite how much I can say here - big brother and all. Please PM me and I will to assist further.

I will also post my understnading of Copy Exact to this forum later - just starting my day.

For further info until I get back I can suggest people hunt around for information from the largest CPU maufacturer - the one that used to be inside by now has lept ahead.

Sorry for being cryptic at this time.
 
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