Core Tools Training Evidence for Internal Auditors

J

jackofalltrades

#1
Our auditor wrote us up for our internal auditors not being trained to Core Tools. We did have our system structured in such a way that the evidence for competency was (1) a training record / certificate, (2) completion of an external course (i.e., AIAG, etc.) or (3) an assessment based on the internal auditor's past performance and made by their supervisor documenting their competency of the Core Tool. It was implied by the 3rd party auditor that the completion of a detailed exam on each of the Core Tools (APQP, MSA, SPC, etc.) by each internal auditor is what we need to implement to demonstrate that our auditors are trained and competent in the Automotive Core Tools. It was stated that the internal auditors should be the experts for these tools. Do you agree? Does anyone have any tests / assessments they have used? We are struggling with this one as many of the auditors have a quality background, have worked with each of these core tools, and are felt to be competent by their supervisors based on past performance.
 
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R

ralphsulser

#2
This auditor is way off on an opinion trip. Was this a 3rd party audit, internal audit, or customer auditor? Internal auditors for TS and even customer specific requirements that I've worked with do not specify testing or a writtten exam in each of the core tools. Usually the TA16949 internal audit course includes the core tools. This should be stated on their certificates, or shown in the course description,index, or topics listed. Further, if you have a skill matrix for the auditors, it should include core tools.
 
#3
I'm guessing that the auditor is thinking 'sauce for the goose, is sauce for the gander'. Just because the TS auditors have had to demonstrate some kind of competencies in the Core Tools, so should internal auditors, using the same methods. Telling you they have to be experts is bizarre!

I'd be interested to know the course the internal auditors have been on, especially since it was AIAG - that alone should have been sufficient.

I'm a bit concerned about the supervisor confirming competencies for a Core Tool, such as APQP. What criteria were used by the supervisor?
I'd need to get some more background on what the supervisor used, if you're looking for some kind of endorsement that it's a good way to go.

Have you got any examples where an auditor has found a non-conformance where the Core Tool wasn't being implemented effectively? Could you share it here?

Bottom line is - Ralph's correct - it's an opinion trip here, unless there's substantive evidence of ineffective audits due to a lack of Core Tools knowledge.......

Andy
 
V

Valeri

#4
I have a question - are you a supplier to Ford? If so, they have very specific requirements for auditors that does include evaluation. There are a couple of loop-holes in Ford's CSR you might be able to apply. You should review your customer specific requirements to identify additional auditor requirements.
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#5
Our auditor wrote us up for our internal auditors not being trained to Core Tools. We did have our system structured in such a way that the evidence for competency was (1) a training record / certificate, (2) completion of an external course (i.e., AIAG, etc.) or (3) an assessment based on the internal auditor's past performance and made by their supervisor documenting their competency of the Core Tool. It was implied by the 3rd party auditor that the completion of a detailed exam on each of the Core Tools (APQP, MSA, SPC, etc.) by each internal auditor is what we need to implement to demonstrate that our auditors are trained and competent in the Automotive Core Tools. It was stated that the internal auditors should be the experts for these tools. Do you agree? Does anyone have any tests / assessments they have used? We are struggling with this one as many of the auditors have a quality background, have worked with each of these core tools, and are felt to be competent by their supervisors based on past performance.
It's helpful when questioning an auditor's finding to give the exact wording of the finding, including citations. What did the auditor cite as the relevant "shall"?
 
J

jackofalltrades

#6
Thanks for all of your feedback . . . exact wording of finding is "No evidence of auditor training to the latest revisions of core tools. "

Yes, we supply Ford.

Yes this was a 3rd party auditor.

Yes, internal training was conducted by RABQSA certified trainer.

In addition, the auditors did not look at any of our documented procedures. They only observed our activities and comments. They were not willing to look at our documents when we asked them if they wanted to or tried to pull them out for discussion purposes. Is this common practice during a certification audit (Stage 2)? Seems a bit odd.
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#7
Thanks for all of your feedback . . . exact wording of finding is "No evidence of auditor training to the latest revisions of core tools. "
That answers one part of the question. Did the auditor provide a citation to the clause in the standard, or other documented requirements, that was allegedly violated?
 
C

cheryl mcguire - 2008

#8
I too got the same write up. I had the team of Internal audit take core tool training. It is differant than internal audit training. They all got a certificate for the AIAG core tools it was a 3 day workshop. It satified the auditor but it was costly.
I know your frustration.
Cheryl
 

Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Staff member
Admin
#9
I believe that the auditor is writing this up against
Ford Motor Company Customer Specifics for ISO/TS 16949

Internal Auditor Qualifications

Internal quality management system auditors shall be qualified per 4.39.1 or 4.39.2 below.

4.39.1 Be trained and evaluated in the following areas:

The Technical Specification ISO/TS 16949:2002

Related core tools (e.g. APQP, SPC, MSA, FMEA, PPAP)

Applicable customer-specific requirements, and

The automotive process approach to auditing. And, as part of the training, participates in practice sessions equivalent to one audit day in:

Case study audits, and/or

Auditing role plays/simulations, and/or

On-site audits.
Core tools and customer specifics can be taught by company or industry recognized experts/specialists.

4.39.2 Or, have conducted at least 5 internal ISO/TS 16949:2002 internal audits during the prior 24 months under the supervision of an auditor trained as specified in 4.39.1 . The audits will need to have covered all requirements of the technical specification and all processes directly impacting Ford part quality at least once over the 5 or more audits.
 
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