How is YOUR company set up??? This is from the ListServe.
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From: Nancy Jennejohn
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 22:55:13 -0500
Subject: Re: Elem 14 related to employee suggestions /../Scalies/Bauer
From: "Russell Bauer"
Charley wrote:
> I had a registrar's auditor tell me that since the new standard requires
> procedures for CA and also PA, he expects to see 2 separate procedures.
I guess we are the strange ones, but I prefer 2 different procedures. This helps everyone keep the two processes separate. I have been trying for a long time to emphasize the practice of preventive action that is outside and not related to corrective action. it is a true art I believe, and preventive action must remain a procedure all it's own. Just my opinion...but strengthened with every external audit we have.
R. Bauer
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From: Nancy Jennejohn
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 22:59:17 -0500
Subject: Re: Elem 14 related to employee suggestions /../Scalies/Holtz
From: "John Holtz"
Charley Scalies wrote:
> I had a registrar's auditor tell me that since the new standard requires
> procedures for CA and also PA, he expects to see 2 separate procedures. I
> have a high regard for this guy - he usually has his head screwed on
> straight - so I figure he must have been off his feed that day.
> Has anyone else gotten the same silly "advice"?
>
Two procedures...one procedure...I can't imagine that being the issue with an auditor...but...if as an auditor I did not see a procedural differentiation between corrective and preventive action, I'd ask for the organization's understanding of the two concepts and follow the links or lack thereof to a process. The differences are subtle. 9000:2000 differentiates them by "prevent occurrence" (PA) and "prevent reoccurrence" (CA), but goes no further.. 9004:2000 implies that PA is data driven for potential events while CA is driven by root-cause of actual events. Hmmmm. Actually, 9001:2000 may give us the most information: from 8.5.2 "...take action to eliminate the cause of nonconformity"; From 8.5.3, "...determine action to eliminate the cause of potential nonconformity." Here's the tree-falling-in-the-woods conundrum as it relates to CA/PA: If in your corrective action you do what is necessary to assure that nonconformance will not happen again, is that a preventive measure or a corrective measure? According to what I've heard in 9001:2000 interpretation, that is CA, even though it "sounds an awful lot like" PA.
Sooo...IF that is CA, then what, pray tell, is PA? Although I fully endorse the data analysis interpretation of PA (for acting on trends before the trending actually leads to nonconformity), I go back to the concepts of mistake-proofing and FMEA at the design stage for clarification: if you design in the measures that eliminate the potential for nonconformity in the first place - and that is NOT easy to DO -- are you not practicing PA? To me, that's clear in theory and difficult-but-not-impossible in practice. My acid test is whether I can apply it to both a manufacturing and a non-manufacturing setting, and I can.
Back to wearing the auditor's hat, I'd allow some slack in interpretation, at least until there's a larger body of experience in interpreting 9000:2000. I'm known as being a "tough" auditor but also fair, and I see the value in differentiating the two processes in the manner stated above. I have also seen a lot of blank faces among my fellow quality professionals when I "talk like this," and so I'm using you all as guinea pigs in a way.
Have I added anything positive to the discussion of CA/PA or do you view this as further muddying of the already-silt-laden waters?
Cheers...and have a great day!
John Holtz
*********************
From: Nancy Jennejohn
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 22:55:13 -0500
Subject: Re: Elem 14 related to employee suggestions /../Scalies/Bauer
From: "Russell Bauer"
Charley wrote:
> I had a registrar's auditor tell me that since the new standard requires
> procedures for CA and also PA, he expects to see 2 separate procedures.
I guess we are the strange ones, but I prefer 2 different procedures. This helps everyone keep the two processes separate. I have been trying for a long time to emphasize the practice of preventive action that is outside and not related to corrective action. it is a true art I believe, and preventive action must remain a procedure all it's own. Just my opinion...but strengthened with every external audit we have.
R. Bauer
*************************
From: Nancy Jennejohn
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 22:59:17 -0500
Subject: Re: Elem 14 related to employee suggestions /../Scalies/Holtz
From: "John Holtz"
Charley Scalies wrote:
> I had a registrar's auditor tell me that since the new standard requires
> procedures for CA and also PA, he expects to see 2 separate procedures. I
> have a high regard for this guy - he usually has his head screwed on
> straight - so I figure he must have been off his feed that day.
> Has anyone else gotten the same silly "advice"?
>
Two procedures...one procedure...I can't imagine that being the issue with an auditor...but...if as an auditor I did not see a procedural differentiation between corrective and preventive action, I'd ask for the organization's understanding of the two concepts and follow the links or lack thereof to a process. The differences are subtle. 9000:2000 differentiates them by "prevent occurrence" (PA) and "prevent reoccurrence" (CA), but goes no further.. 9004:2000 implies that PA is data driven for potential events while CA is driven by root-cause of actual events. Hmmmm. Actually, 9001:2000 may give us the most information: from 8.5.2 "...take action to eliminate the cause of nonconformity"; From 8.5.3, "...determine action to eliminate the cause of potential nonconformity." Here's the tree-falling-in-the-woods conundrum as it relates to CA/PA: If in your corrective action you do what is necessary to assure that nonconformance will not happen again, is that a preventive measure or a corrective measure? According to what I've heard in 9001:2000 interpretation, that is CA, even though it "sounds an awful lot like" PA.
Sooo...IF that is CA, then what, pray tell, is PA? Although I fully endorse the data analysis interpretation of PA (for acting on trends before the trending actually leads to nonconformity), I go back to the concepts of mistake-proofing and FMEA at the design stage for clarification: if you design in the measures that eliminate the potential for nonconformity in the first place - and that is NOT easy to DO -- are you not practicing PA? To me, that's clear in theory and difficult-but-not-impossible in practice. My acid test is whether I can apply it to both a manufacturing and a non-manufacturing setting, and I can.
Back to wearing the auditor's hat, I'd allow some slack in interpretation, at least until there's a larger body of experience in interpreting 9000:2000. I'm known as being a "tough" auditor but also fair, and I see the value in differentiating the two processes in the manner stated above. I have also seen a lot of blank faces among my fellow quality professionals when I "talk like this," and so I'm using you all as guinea pigs in a way.
Have I added anything positive to the discussion of CA/PA or do you view this as further muddying of the already-silt-laden waters?
Cheers...and have a great day!
John Holtz