Cultural influence and "lineage" of Quality Systems

Sidney Vianna

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#1
Generalizations are always risky. But, realizing that we are seeing more Cove participants from regions of the World other than North America and Europe, I detect that many participants from the Middle East and Australasia seem to have strong affinity with "old fashioned", document and form intensive QMS's. In my experience, these regions have been and continue to be influenced by British quality consulting organizations, which tend to be extremely traditional and "out of the box solution" bashers.
Some of the recent post exchanges here at the Cove about internal audits, CA/PA (DIE HARD 376), etc... show a significant difference in cultural approaches to implementing QMS's.
Don't get me wrong. I am not inferring that all British quality consultants are too prescriptive. We have a number of UK based Covers that show a lot of creativity and forward thinking. And we also have a number of North American Covers that don't like out of the box thinking, but I hope that the quality system "culture" in emerging economies is not overly influenced by archaic, ineffective, document and form intensive quality consultants.
 
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RoxaneB

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#2
Here's my look at it...when ISO 9001 first came out, those of us who first implemented it more than likely had a tendancy to go document-happy! Having hundreds if not thousands of documents was normal and expected. As our systems - and those of us in Management Systems - have matured, styles and methodologies to maintain and improve have also evolved.

Many of us now question the need for all this documentation. Many of us now question the need for rigidity within the system. Our growth and development has led many of us to realize that a system (and its tools and methodologies) must be flexible and dynamic. As the company grows, so to must the system and the culture.

For those people looking to develop rigidly documented systems in these economies (and for those that are new to Management Systems), I say "Give 'em time...they'll see the light, just as we did." As much as I would like to say "Listen to us with experience! We know what you're going through and where you'll end up!", I know that we won't necessarily be listened to. So I try to explain from a mature system standpoint, but I admit that more than likely, my point-of-view is falling on deaf ears...I just hope that perhaps I can help one person.

I think that there are "growing pains" that every Management System must go through...and every person involved in the field, as well.

I've said this before and I'll say it again...when I started at my current organization, the very thought of a Quality Manual got me excited. I could go on and on about ISO 9001 and how wonderful it was. It's hard to believe that it's only been 5 years here...but in that time, I've come to appreciate and love the beauty of the Business Management System. I've learned to appreciate all of the tools and methodolgies (i.e., ISO 9001, ISO 14001, ISRS, failure analysis, standard auditing, standardization and there are so many more) and the linkages between all of them. To that effect, my organization even has a "board game" to help people learn how all of the individual tools and methodologies link up and align. It's actually a lot of fun!

I became involved in ISO 9001 as part of my summer off after 1st year University. Personnally, my boss at the time and I joked that I was hired because I used the word "crap" in my definition of ISO...but I still believed that it could benefit an organization.

Over 10 years later, I still appreciate it, but also see that there is a remarkable difference between doing was the standard says and what the standard implies. There is so much more value to all Stakeholders if the latter is done...but it may take time for people who are new to the concept to appreciate this subtlety.

*steps down from the soapbox and hands the microphone back to Sidney*
 
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pldey42

#3
It's nothing to do with being British. As an Englishman I spent nine years in the USA and for every one American quality manager I found that could think outside the box, there were many, many who were archaic, ineffective, documentation and form intensive. As you said, generalisations are risky and this one's plain wrong.

The reason people all over the world - please do not imagine America is ahead, because you ain't - emphasise documentation too much is fear of auditors. Look at the questions here at the Cove: most are concerned with what the auditors think.

Patrick
 

Coury Ferguson

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#4
pldey42 said:
It's nothing to do with being British. As an Englishman I spent nine years in the USA and for every one American quality manager I found that could think outside the box, there were many, many who were archaic, ineffective, documentation and form intensive. As you said, generalisations are risky and this one's plain wrong.

The reason people all over the world - please do not imagine America is ahead, because you ain't - emphasise documentation too much is fear of auditors. Look at the questions here at the Cove: most are concerned with what the auditors think.

Patrick
Very frank Patrick.:thanx:

I feel that there are a lot of American QA Managers that will think outside the box. I believe that comes with experience. As for the question of "what the auditors think" is true. Most of the experienced QA Managers know to challenge auditors when they feel that the Auditor is out-of-bed. But a lot of this again is experience. There are some other issues that some auditors have a difference of opinion on what the standard requires, but there are some auditors that understand the standard and are consistent with the way they audit. Again this falls under experience, in my opinion.
 
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RoxaneB

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#5
pldey42 said:
Look at the questions here at the Cove: most are concerned with what the auditors think.
Fear of:
  • The Auditors
  • Their Boss
  • Losing their job
  • Being deemed a failure

Yes, fear plays a part. With time and experience and exposure that fear should go away. I've reached that point where our system is our system. It meets not only the requirements of ISO 9001 but also the requirements of our Stakeholders.

It's hardly perfect, though...we have hiccups...but we also strive to continually improve our processes through the involvement of our Stakeholders.

I've realized that our system is bigger than one auditor coming in with a checklist and pen. It is who we are...what we do.

My only fear is that our system will fail (irrational, but a fear nevertheless)...not because of an auditor....but because of ourselves.
 

Coury Ferguson

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#6
RCBeyette said:
Fear of:
  • The Auditors
  • Their Boss
  • Losing their job
  • Being deemed a failure

Yes, fear plays a part. With time and experience and exposure that fear should go away. I've reached that point where our system is our system. It meets not only the requirements of ISO 9001 but also the requirements of our Stakeholders.

It's hardly perfect, though...we have hiccups...but we also strive to continually improve our processes through the involvement of our Stakeholders.

I've realized that our system is bigger than one auditor coming in with a checklist and pen. It is who we are...what we do.

My only fear is that our system will fail (irrational, but a fear nevertheless)...not because of an auditor....but because of ourselves.

Well put RC. And for the three words that you like to hear: You are right.
 

Sidney Vianna

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#9
pldey42 said:
It's nothing to do with being British.
You are right. But when you consider the fact that certification to quality management standards is an activity that has been in place in the UK since the 1970's and, relatively speaking, the UK has the highest concentration of "ISO 9001" certificates in the World, the British have influenced the ISO 9000 consulting and certification business all over the World. And the influence continues to propagate. Look who was providing ISO 9000 and Lead Assessor Courses in the US in the 90's.

Many ineffective QMS's around the World are a undesired byproduct of the legacy of consulting models that have been proofed and tested to pass audits, but ineffective in terms of improving organizational performance.
 
P

pldey42

#10
Sidney Vianna said:
You are right. But when you consider the fact that certification to quality management standards is an activity that has been in place in the UK since the 1970's and, relatively speaking, the UK has the highest concentration of "ISO 9001" certificates in the World, the British have influenced the ISO 9000 consulting and certification business all over the World. And the influence continues to propagate. Look who was providing ISO 9000 and Lead Assessor Courses in the US in the 90's.
These remarks are objectionable. I refuse to engage in such nationalistic nonsense. I suggest the Cove does likewise if it intends to retain its international flavour.


Having worked in quality in England, Germany, France, America, Australia and Japan I;ve learned it's true there are cultural influences that impact the implementation of quality management systems in different countries; but in that discussion there is no room nationalistic one-upmanship.

Many ineffective QMS's around the World are a undesired byproduct of the legacy of consulting models that have been proofed and tested to pass audits, but ineffective in terms of improving organizational performance.
True. Nothing to do with auditors or consultants being British. All nations, including the USA, are equally capable of misunderstanding a simple message.

Patrick
 
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