Customer Approval - Three Strikes and you're Out? Is the 3 Strikes Rule a Myth?

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#11
Not sure what industry you work in Wes, but an Automotive line stop would cost us dearly and would put us more than under the economic thumb as it were! Yes maybe shipping product not offcially signed off would present a line stoip also, but it comes with authority from the customer. What the customer wants, the customer get's and unfortunately a signed off PSW does not carry the weight it should with some organisations.

The attitude with some of my customers is "the products fine, just ship so we don't get a line stop!" and the PSW will come as a paper exercise later. Yes I can hear you all taking a sharp intake of breath at that!:mg: But it's reality, especially with Tier 1's (my company working as Tier 2). We don't normally get this with OEM's though, so calm down!

I don't believe I am the only one with this experience! :rolleyes:

Certainly many suppliers have a similar situation. However, it typically reflects laziness or procrastination or inadequate planning on the part of the customer. Shipping without at least an interim warrent means you are shipping without any approval. I have seen a number of situations where this has led to a problem and the suplier had nothing to stand on. In other words, he was screwed! That is why many suppliers press a little harder, even if they don't always win. If you make it too easy, why would the customer worry about getting it right?
 
Elsmar Forum Sponsor

Manix

Get Involved!!!
Trusted Information Resource
#12
Yes, you are all pretty much right on the money about shipping produciton stock without official sign off! Where possible we always try to avoid, but there was a time not too long ago where we would ship to two of the big 3 without so much as a PPAP!!!!!!

So things have changed and the mindset is there!

Thanks to all those that have responded! :agree1:

AND Hey it's my 100th post!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
B

Bill Pflanz

#14
I agree with Bill Ryan on this one, and I'm speaking from an OEM standpoint. Why is everyone so afraid to give the customer what he asked for? If the agreement is that product may not be shipped without PPAP approval, then you don't ship product until you get PPAP approval. It is as simple as that. You'd be amazed at how fast that warrant will get signed if you tell the customer that his product is on the dock, waiting to be shipped, but it ain't goin' nowhere until you receive approval (or some sort of official dispensation that allows shipment).
What about the poor production manager who is waiting for his product and can't get it just because of some meaningless paperwork that must be signed probably by a pencil pusher in a staff department? I have never worked in the auto industry but reading about some of the requirements for PPAP in this forum does make you wonder if product quality is the highest priority for them.

Bill Pflanz
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#15
What about the poor production manager who is waiting for his product and can't get it just because of some meaningless paperwork that must be signed probably by a pencil pusher in a staff department? I have never worked in the auto industry but reading about some of the requirements for PPAP in this forum does make you wonder if product quality is the highest priority for them.

Bill Pflanz
My brother recently told me a story about when he worked on the line at American Motors. He was new to the job, and a guy across the line from him keeled over with an apparent heart attack. There was all kinds of commotion as people tried to attend to the guy, and of course the paramedics were called. The movement of the line was interfering with people trying to help, or so it seemed to my brother, so he shut it down. Suddenly the poor guy whose heart was attacking him was no longer the focus of attention, and a red-faced supervisor appeared on the scene, restarted the line, and suggested to the paramedics that they might want to move the guy out of the way. The guy survived, and so did my brother, but just barely in both cases.

My point is that the surest way to get anyone's attention in the automotive world is not to have a heart attack, or to even have explosives strapped to your chest. All you have to do is say "I'm shutting down the line." Warrants will get signed in a hurry.
 
B

Bill Pflanz

#16
My point is that the surest way to get anyone's attention in the automotive world is not to have a heart attack, or to even have explosives strapped to your chest. All you have to do is say "I'm shutting down the line." Warrants will get signed in a hurry.
Your story is a sad commentary on how some businesses operate. That fact that the warrant or any other paperwork gets signed with little thought just supports the fact that it is probably meaningless paperwork that has nothing to do with quality.

Bill Pflanz
 

Wes Bucey

Quite Involved in Discussions
#17
Just to clarify:
I absolutely know about automotive (and aerospace and medical device and health care and banking industries.)

I tell you without equivocation no company I ever served as an executive ever shut down a customer - only a customer shuts himself down! Certainly, some customers get shut down by force majeure, but, far and away, most delays resulting in shut down are ultimately attributable to a customer.

Consider a supplier unable to meet a deadline: did the customer satisfy himself (in supplier evaluation) the supplier was capable and likely to meet the deadline or did he only look at the low price he was able to negotiate [or extort?]

Consider a supplier (me, on several occasions) who REFUSES to ship because customer neglected to give product approval or (MOST FREQUENT REASON) customer didn't pay bills - any question who is at fault?

Let me add that I have accepted verbal (recorded) signoffs by customers in addition to fax and email signoffs when an approval from the customer was delayed in its own red tape, but I never feared "retribution" from a humiliated customer - I fired a lot more customers than ever fired me and my company. I once held a shipment in my truck at my dock until I received CASH (not check) from a customer who tried to impose a unilateral "60 day moratorium" on payment. When I called and asked for payment, he (the purchasing agent) said something to the effect I should be glad they were doing business with me.
(shortcut to the end of the story - he got fired and President of the customer, himself, brought the cash and an apology.)

I really did "walk the talk."
 
B

Bill Ryan - 2007

#18
Your story is a sad commentary on how some businesses operate. That fact that the warrant or any other paperwork gets signed with little thought just supports the fact that it is probably meaningless paperwork that has nothing to do with quality.

Bill Pflanz
Bill, this isn't to "jump all over you" but let's not forget that it is the OEMs and Tier 1s forcing the rules (TS registration) and the PPAP book specifically states "thou shalt not ship without approval".
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#19
Just to clarify:
I absolutely know about automotive (and aerospace and medical device and health care and banking industries.)

I tell you without equivocation no company I ever served as an executive ever shut down a customer - only a customer shuts himself down! Certainly, some customers get shut down by force majeure, but, far and away, most delays resulting in shut down are ultimately attributable to a customer.

Consider a supplier unable to meet a deadline: did the customer satisfy himself (in supplier evaluation) the supplier was capable and likely to meet the deadline or did he only look at the low price he was able to negotiate [or extort?]

Consider a supplier (me, on several occasions) who REFUSES to ship because customer neglected to give product approval or (MOST FREQUENT REASON) customer didn't pay bills - any question who is at fault?

Let me add that I have accepted verbal (recorded) signoffs by customers in addition to fax and email signoffs when an approval from the customer was delayed in its own red tape, but I never feared "retribution" from a humiliated customer - I fired a lot more customers than ever fired me and my company. I once held a shipment in my truck at my dock until I received CASH (not check) from a customer who tried to impose a unilateral "60 day moratorium" on payment. When I called and asked for payment, he (the purchasing agent) said something to the effect I should be glad they were doing business with me.
(shortcut to the end of the story - he got fired and President of the customer, himself, brought the cash and an apology.)

I really did "walk the talk."

Bravo!! :applause:
 
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
A Customer Approval (Medical Devices) Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 4
D Change Approval Requirements - Does every change need formal customer approval? Design and Development of Products and Processes 17
I MSA requirement for 5 Micrometers + CP changes need customer approval? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 2
W Am I allowed to ship parts without FAI approval from the customer? AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 6
Q AS9100 Repairs - Approval from a non-aerospace customer prior to conducting a repair AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 14
A AS9100C Out Of Tolerance (OOT) Equipment - Customer Approval AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 14
D Does Sampling Plan Revision need Customer Approval? Inspection, Prints (Drawings), Testing, Sampling and Related Topics 4
E PPAP PSW Approval: Customer Drawing or Supplier Drawing APQP and PPAP 4
C What does "NO" mean in Customer Approval Verification (FAI form 2, Field 9) AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 10
S Design Change Drawing Reviews and Customer Approval Process Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 5
D ISO 9001 - Customer Approval of Design Changes ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 6
P PPAP Approval - Customer approval of PSW (part submission warrant) APQP and PPAP 5
T Customer Approval to Substitute Nylon 6/10 with 6/12? Manufacturing and Related Processes 6
G Sample Approval by Customer - Customer doesn't send/return their approval IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 10
R Control of Nonconforming Product - Customer and/or Regulatory Approval ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 4
J Customer Drawing Approval - No approval signature on prints ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 25
J Are email acceptable as records? Email for a customer approval of some part? Records and Data - Quality, Legal and Other Evidence 20
J Calibration intervals - Expiration dates on our certificates w/out customer approval Calibration Frequency (Interval) 3
S Non-ISO 9001 Suppliers - Customer approval letters to use Supplier Quality Assurance and other Supplier Issues 20
M Customer Approval of New Products - First articles prior to release to production Other ISO and International Standards and European Regulations 6
T Customer Part Approval Process Manual? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 6
J Part Approval - Eliminating Incoming Quality Inspection by Customer Inspection, Prints (Drawings), Testing, Sampling and Related Topics 4
D Suggestions for Ishikawa for hyperdetailed customer - plastic molding automotive parts Nonconformance and Corrective Action 9
J WAIVED ON Q1 - We Don't have to comply with FORDS customer specific requirements IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 2
M Reduce occurrence rating based on the PMS data and customer complaint data ISO 14971 - Medical Device Risk Management 2
M IATF16949 Clause 9.1.2.1e - Customer notification related IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 4
G Too many customer complaints Customer Complaints 16
lanley liao Does the customer`s trademark belong to customer-supplied property? Oil and Gas Industry Standards and Regulations 2
J Customer Complaint & SCAR, false data Nonconformance and Corrective Action 14
S Annual Inspection Layout - Based on Customer print ? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 8
G Risk of stopping your customer's line IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 4
S Calibration/Verification of customer fixtures IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 6
D CB and customer audits considered as internal audits? General Auditing Discussions 9
O Informational Ford Motor Company Customer Specific Requirements for IATF 16949:2016 - 08 Jan 2021 Customer and Company Specific Requirements 0
G Bad Parts cause Customer line stop IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 13
O IATF 16949 News Ford Motors Customer Specific Requirements Update - Nov 2020 IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 5
D Question regarding customer feedback process ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 3
B Retention Samples when Customer Leaves Pharmaceuticals (21 CFR Part 210, 21 CFR Part 211 and related Regulations) 1
M Email Template that go to a customer and then get returned to us for RMA/Warranty Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 1
B FCA US Customer Specific IATF 16949- Critical Characteristics 8.6.2 Customer and Company Specific Requirements 0
D ISO 13485 8.2.1 and 8.2.2 - Customer Feedback and Customer Complaints ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 5
J Customer Complaint Response 21 CFR Part 820 - US FDA Quality System Regulations (QSR) 3
V Quality review Meeting with Customer for complaints we received Customer Complaints 6
D IATF16949 - Interpretation of Customer Requirements clauses IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 3
S Obligation to accept customer audits? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 23
D IATF16949 7.5.3.2.1 Record Retention - Our Product or Customer Product? Elsmar Cove Forum Suggestions, Complaints, Problems and Bug Reports 1
S Customer Specific Requirements (CSR) not signed/approved IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 17
B FCA US IATF 16949 Customer Requirements updates Customer and Company Specific Requirements 3
G Same parts but new customer - What will the auditor ask me? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 2
R Customer Satisfaction importance in companies with Government/Public Administration as main customer? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 11

Similar threads

Top Bottom