Customer Complaint & SCAR, false data

John H

Starting to get Involved
#1
I am having a difficult time trying to create a 5 Why. A customer detected out of specification parts and sent a SCAR. The issue is that the operator measured the parts out of spec (way out of spec - Control Chart was very obvious) and still placed parts into inventory. The operator also skipped several checks in the manufacturing data base (based upon the control plans) as well as did not perform frequency checks in some other instances. To be blunt - the operator will be at best slightly reprimanded. This is somewhat normal where I work. Any suggestions on how to perform a 5 Why? I am of the opinion I treat the whole thing as fact based and continue going until the root cause is discovered and a preventive action is put in place.
 
Elsmar Forum Sponsor

Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Staff member
Admin
#2
The first step is to ask the person responsible for accepting non conforming product why he did it. Lack of discipline? Carelessness? Mind not on the job? Incompetent to measure characteristics? Anyone here could only wild guess causation for the faux pas.

If, as you say, this is somewhat common at your workplace, there is an obvious cultural misfit towards quality accountability.
 

John H

Starting to get Involved
#5
Is this an exaggeration?
I certainly hope so....
No - it is not an exaggeration. I completed a product audit late 2020 on a different product line and found that the frequency checks were not being completed within the timeframe required. I re-audited the CA several weeks ago randomly picking work orders from the floor and nothing changed. I also completed a process audit late fall last year (I work for a Tier II supplier/IATF) and the audit was horrific. Certified operators did not know how do certain Control Plan measurement checks as well as data not being put into the database...Suspect of Controlled Product got out the door. I am trying to learn a lot with the objective of leaving but I have zero guidance within the company.
 

Ninja

Looking for Reality
Trusted Information Resource
#6
Are you in a position, or more important do you have the support of someone in a position, to raise a red flag to management that they will see?

If management doesn't care...just leave and work somewhere else.
If management doesn't know...you have a chance to be a change agent and overall hero (read promotion and raises).

Management only puts value on some input channels...I know, I'm in management...and there are some folks I wouldn't trust enough to look further, just nod and move on. Others I would take seriously for any topic. (right or wrong...who knows...but it isn't about me.)

In my experience, well over 50% of what you describe (by company count) happens because mgmt doesn't know. Assuming that this is the case in your company...do you have a channel to tell them...specifically a channel that they will actually listen to?

One of my vendors is a train wreck (but far cheaper than the next nearest competitor). They spend $100K per month for a system that doesn't work...I could build them a system that did work for $30K one time fee... but I have no channel to communicate this that they will listen to.
The point...look for that channel that they listen to, it's the only way to find out if they care.

Good luck!
 

Ninja

Looking for Reality
Trusted Information Resource
#7
Off topic...but related...
I used to work in a company at entry level scientist position...saw horrific stuff like you describe, and looked for a communication channel as I described above.

When I found one, we worked together and I just fed him info and did all the heavy lifting on the floor.
Turns out that Mgmt had recently become aware of the issues, and they DID care.
I clearly remember (always will) sitting at his desk when he was promoted to quality manager. I remember asking him "Are you willing to build a company together, while we work for it?"

Fast forward 8 very busy years: He was Managing Director for the site, I was Asst Director of Operations reporting to him...and NPAT had increased 3x...and we didn't have to slog through the stuff you are describing anymore (and we had profit sharing on that 3x increase).

If you can find that communications channel...and Mgmt cares...this is a great opportunity for you if you want it.
 

Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Staff member
Admin
#8
No - it is not an exaggeration. I completed a product audit late 2020 on a different product line and found that the frequency checks were not being completed within the timeframe required. I re-audited the CA several weeks ago randomly picking work orders from the floor and nothing changed. I also completed a process audit late fall last year (I work for a Tier II supplier/IATF) and the audit was horrific. Certified operators did not know how do certain Control Plan measurement checks as well as data not being put into the database...Suspect of Controlled Product got out the door. I am trying to learn a lot with the objective of leaving but I have zero guidance within the company.
I feel for you, but, you obviously cannot change the dysfunctional organizational culture. What you describe seems to be a deeply ingrained disdain for personal responsibility and accountability to adhere to established processes and quality. The bit about nothing have changed after an audit discover a problem and the corrective action being totally ineffective is quite telling.

Since the organization is required to be certified to the IATF 16949, don’t the CB auditors find any of these atrocities during their audits? If the lack of discipline is so wide spread, you would think that the CB auditors would find these and the quality escapes would generate a lot of customer complaints and SCARs.
 

John C. Abnet

Teacher, sensei, kennari
Staff member
#9
I am of the opinion I treat the whole thing as fact based and continue going until the root cause is discovered
Good day @John H . Yes, this is exactly the intent of a proper 5whys. Please allow me to add that while I certainly have no doubt that an operator skipped numerous steps as you state, "operator error' is never an acceptable end (root cause) of a 5 whys result. I am extremely sympathetic to your situation and the frustrations. I spent 21 years in 1st tier automotive...mostly with Japanese OEM (Honda for example has a 5p, which is a very beneficial problem solving tool that incorporates the 5whys as its foundation).

If an operator skipped step(s), then we must continue with "why" did the operator miss steps. In my entire career I've never experienced an actual malicious act/sabotage by an operator. Oh, operators have done or not done out of frustration,...but , we will ALWAYS have operators and so, we can't allow the root cause to end there.
(On a side note, to make a presentation at Honda or Toyota [for example] and conclude that the cause was "operator error" would be to ask your head handed to you. The automotive industry [my customers/experiences] would never accept operator error to be identified as root cause). It always shocks me, therefore, to hear the NTSB state that "the determination was pilot error". Well, what that means (since the pilot in question is dead), is that there is no corrective action and every other pilot is at risk of repeating the accident. Unconscionable.)

I'd be glad to review your 5whys and make suggestions for you. Feel free to DM me here or contact me via
https://www.linkedin.com/in/johnabnet-rakumanagementsystems/

Hope this helps.

Be well.
 

Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Staff member
Admin
#10
Good day @John H If an operator skipped step(s), then we must continue with "why" did the operator miss steps.
The problem with this approach is: as reported, this is NOT the case of a single individual, an isolated case; it is rampant, endemic and on-going. Any attempt to "treat" this one case, without paying attention to the context of the organization is foolish, in my opinion. Especially when, as already reported, similar attempts in the past ended up with corrective actions that proved to be totally ineffective.
 
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
M Reduce occurrence rating based on the PMS data and customer complaint data ISO 14971 - Medical Device Risk Management 2
J Customer Complaint Response 21 CFR Part 820 - US FDA Quality System Regulations (QSR) 3
S How to treat a customer complaint ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 7
PhilM Nonconformance report, Customer complaint investigations and RMAs ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 8
G Problem Resolution Report Monitoring - Customer complaint or PRR as general motors use Customer Complaints 12
R Does an RMA = a Customer Complaint Customer Complaints 4
G Customer complaint over a Reference Dimension Manufacturing and Related Processes 9
E Is there an Automotive Customer Complaint Index? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 3
R In a software development company: Is every bug reported by the customer a complaint? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 27
E Corrective Action or Customer Complaint ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 16
T Decontamination responsibility on customer complaint investigation Customer Complaints 4
N Possibly worlds first customer service complaint Supply Chain Security Management Systems 0
A What is a Customer Complaint? (ISO 9001:2015) ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 9
M Should Potential Customer Complaint Outcome Define Registrar NC Rating? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 8
J FDA definition of a complaint - Customer orders spare parts 21 CFR Part 820 - US FDA Quality System Regulations (QSR) 5
P Customer Complaint Definition - Food Distributor Customer Complaints 5
R Customer Complaint - Samples vs. Removal - FDA Requirements 21 CFR Part 820 - US FDA Quality System Regulations (QSR) 2
Moncia Customer Complaint Procedure example needed Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 1
C Medical Device Malfunction - Customer Complaint - Response vs. Correction Other US Medical Device Regulations 3
T PPAP - Complaint from a Tier One customer concerning Product Dimension IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 26
Q Customer Complaint Vs. Nonconformance - CAPA SYSTEM Customer Complaints 2
L Creating a xlsx Customer Complaint file to track Complaints Excel .xls Spreadsheet Templates and Tools 2
N Customer Complaint - Rapid Response Containment Procedure Customer Complaints 4
J Customer Complaint - PPAP - Issues not called out on the print APQP and PPAP 3
R Customer Complaint/Nonconforming Product Inquiry ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 4
D Can anyone share a Customer Complaint procedure not requiring logging complaints ? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 5
P Customer Complaint Preventive Action Assistance Preventive Action and Continuous Improvement 3
Q When to issue a Customer Complaint related to efficacy of a Medical Device? ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 3
S Do I need to initiate a Customer Complaint for Engineering Samples? Customer Complaints 4
A Customer Complaint - Incident Reporting Hardcopy Signoff Customer Complaints 8
B Analysis & Closure of a Customer Complaint Customer Complaints 6
C Customer Feedback, Satisfaction, Complaint Procedure and Measurement Customer Complaints 8
N Closed Customer Complaint Response Form Examples? Customer Complaints 3
J Damaged Parts in Customer Returns - Complaint Investigation? ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 9
D Is an NCR required in this Customer Complaint scenario? Nonconformance and Corrective Action 6
B Categorization of Customer Complaint: Making Customers feel they are Top Priority Customer Complaints 4
B Understanding the attached sample Pareto Chart for Customer Complaint Quality Tools, Improvement and Analysis 20
J Should I file a Customer Complaint as a Nonconforming Material Report or a CAP? Nonconformance and Corrective Action 5
R Help defining Eyewear Customer Complaint Categories Customer Complaints 5
K Audit NC - No evidence of a full 5 Why Analysis for the Customer Complaint Problem Solving, Root Cause Fault and Failure Analysis 8
somashekar What if a non EU customer makes a complaint to NB ? EU Medical Device Regulations 2
R Everest Customer Complaint System by Lynk Software US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) 1
T Is a Nonconformance Report required for every Customer Complaint? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 18
J Who should accept the samples of Customer Complaint products ? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 3
S Data Flow diagram for a Customer Complaint System - Help wanted Customer Complaints 6
B Small Company Customer Complaint System ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 2
L Internal Audit to Focus on Customer Complaint Re-occurrences Internal Auditing 4
W Re-Evaluating Corrective Actions - Recurrence of a Customer Complaint Nonconformance and Corrective Action 7
P Customer Complaint due to unanswered telephone during audit Internal Auditing 16
B Are Parts in a Positive Recall w/o Customer Complaint considered as External PPM? Quality Manager and Management Related Issues 6

Similar threads

Top Bottom